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Snowflake’s Mandarin Log | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 505 of 740 16 November 2011 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | ||
Written language is pretty much the same, though I find Taiwanese written Chinese tend to make heavier use of Classical Chinese (probably because they emphasise it more in school). But spoken Mandarin is pretty different across the strait. Chinese Mandarin has gone though significant changes, and Taiwanese Mandarin has been influenced by Hokkien. There are pretty significant differences in pronunciation, for example. I can't write hanzi now, as I'm at work, but examples include la1ji1 (garbage) which is pronounced le4se4 in Taiwan, or he2 (and), pronounced as han4. In many cases, Taiwanese Mandarin has a more conservative pronunciation, where Mainland pronunciation has changed. Apart from mere pronunciation differences, there are also vocab differences. Some are just matters of preference, where Taiwanese speakers of Mandarin tend to prefer one term and Chinese speakers another, although both are correct and recognised. Sometimes, however, the same word will mean different thing in the two places, like tu3dou4, which means "potato" in China, but "peanut" in Taiwan. Ai4ren2 means "lover" or "mistress" in Taiwan, but "spouse" in China. Gao3 is a common and straightforward word in China, but a vulgar swear in Taiwan. The same thing will be called by different names in Taiwan and China, such as "bicycle" (jiao3ta4che1 vs. zi4xing2che1) and "pineapple" (feng4li2 vs. bo1luo2). With all these changes, it certainly wouldn't surprise me that some words have different usages. I don't know if 拘谨 is one of them, but I wouldn't be surprised. If wo1xin1 can mean "warm feeling" in Taiwan and "uneasy mind" in China, then why couldn't 拘谨 have different meanings as well? I'm just a second language learner, but the differences are there. I don't know if this particular one is a difference or a mistake, but I know there are plenty of differences that are NOT mistakes. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Snowflake Senior Member United States Joined 5960 days ago 1032 posts - 1233 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 506 of 740 20 November 2011 at 5:32am | IP Logged | ||
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Some ramblings...
My friend, at work who is from Beijing, suggested I use some newer material (than FSI). We've talked in the past about the Taiwanese material I've used which made for some interesting conversations...like the different words for Labor Day; 劳动节 (mainland), 劳工节(Taiwan). When I lamented about my horrid grammar she downplayed things saying there are Mandarin speakers, with poor grammar, who have come from certain places. I was taken aback.... will have to ask later what areas she was referring to. I've discovered listening to PopUp Chinese lessons in Audacity. That makes it easier to extract audio clips. Extracting audio from FSI is more agonizing for some reason. Here's a phrase from PopUp Chinese that my Taiwanese chat partner thought sounded a bit odd, 正好就着披萨一起喝 (referring to soda pop). He offered, 那么就跟着pizza一起享用. I'm in the FSI Money module but am having a mental block. Everplayer, you are right about 拘谨的教材/拘謹的教材. I checked with the Taiwanese woman at work. She said jūjǐn de jiàocái is an odd phrase since 拘谨 generally refers to people. So in this case it seems that my chat partners' technical leanings have spilled over. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Snowflake Senior Member United States Joined 5960 days ago 1032 posts - 1233 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 507 of 740 22 November 2011 at 4:39am | IP Logged | ||
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Today I was talking to a native speaker, on my floor at work. This was the first time that I've really talked with this woman. It was the usually pleasantries... where am I from? Do I speak Cantonese (since my parents are from Guangdong). Where did I learn Mandarin, etc. Afterward I decided to ask her about the two phrases in my prior post;
正好就着披萨一起喝 那么就跟着pizza一起享用 This person has been here 13-19 years (from the mainland). She had difficulties with both phrases. She did not know what 披萨 meant (first sentence). It's probably a new word so her response is understandable. She had difficulty with the second due to its' embedded English...basically how can it be Chinese when it has English embedded. I'm used to a smattering of English from my movies which were mostly dubbed for the Taiwanese market and my overseas Taiwanese chat partner. Afterward I asked my Malaysian friend about the two phrases. He also didn’t know what 披萨 meant. He wasn't sure about 就着 so I explained that. Then he felt the grammar of the first phrase was weird; He understood it to be referring to drinking pizza. So I explained the source of that which may have been an eye opener. He was fine with the second phrase. The regional variances are pretty interesting. Most of the audio that I'm extracting for flash cards are from PopUp Chinese lessons. My original thought was to offset the Taiwanese materials that I'm used to. Well the R's are starting to throw me. My friend from Beijing referred to my learning Chinese as a hobby. I had never thought of it that way since I often feel like pulling my hair out. But that perspective makes it easier to talk about; It also helps me to not constantly bang my head. Edited by Snowflake on 22 November 2011 at 4:42am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| jasoninchina Senior Member China Joined 5232 days ago 221 posts - 306 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Mandarin, Italian | Message 508 of 740 22 November 2011 at 4:58am | IP Logged | ||
I know the feeling. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Everplayer Diglot Groupie China Joined 5050 days ago 69 posts - 85 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, English Studies: Japanese, German | Message 509 of 740 22 November 2011 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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To Ari: I am impressed by your passion in the Chinese languages as you know so many differences in the usages in Mainland and in Taiwan. Many of these differences are due to the influence of Hokkien as you mentioned. Regarding 愛人, I guess Japanese (Japan ruled Taiwan for 50 years.)may play a part because the same Kanji means "mistress" but the Chinese counterpart was coined in the early 20th century with the original meaning of "wife". 搞 probably now carry a similar connotation everywhere because of the Internet. 窝心 is a word well known for its opposite meanings in different parts of China. In many areas of South China, it has the same meaning as in Taiwan. Moreover, many more words are pronounced differently across the strait, though meanings are not changed. Word like 拘谨 which is rather formal or mainly used in writing usually has consistent meaning.
To Snowflake: Regarding 正好就着披萨一起喝 and 那么就跟着pizza一起享用 Hong Kongers and Taiwanese (as well as Chinese-speaking people from Malaysia and Singapore) may be already used to mixing English(Italian?) with Chinese but Mainlanders are not in general. The usage of 就着（accompanied with, food/drink only） in the first sentence is quite "Mandarin"-ish or "northern". Actually, it is not exactly correct here. (Again? What a nitpicker I am...) A main reason why some couldn't understand this sentence is that it implies that "one drinks pizza", due to the the presence of 一起, which is clearly weird. And another subtler mistake is that when you say "A 就着 B" A is the main course and B is the side dish, which is apparently not the case in this sentence. (Or you really mean that?) Correcting the first mistake: 正好就着披萨喝苏打水 (if you really mean it...) Correcting both mistakes: 正好就着苏打水吃披萨 享用 is too literary or too polite (perhaps used by a stewardess or a waiter) though it is a way to avoid using 吃 or 喝 for pizza and soda combined(一起). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Ari Heptaglot Senior Member Norway Joined 6583 days ago 2314 posts - 5695 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Cantonese Studies: Czech, Latin, German | Message 510 of 740 22 November 2011 at 10:35pm | IP Logged | ||
Don't be; I got it all from Wikipedia. I was just vaguely aware that there are significant differences and I've heard stories of people from Taiwan and China misunderstanding each other. Or people from different places in China, for that matter. I might be going to Taiwan for a week or so next year, though, so this thread gave me a reason to look up the differences in more detail. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Snowflake Senior Member United States Joined 5960 days ago 1032 posts - 1233 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 511 of 740 23 November 2011 at 2:32am | IP Logged | ||
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Jasoninchina,
"Students who were slow starters are often the tortoises that win the proficiency race." I remind myself about this from time to time as it makes me feel better. The quote is from "Achieving Success in Second Language Acquisition". Also on memorizing dialogs, I am unintentionally memorizing the short elementary PopUp Chinese dialogs which are somewhat silly and therefore fun. I was running around today talking about the cat writing a letter (not that I even have a cat). Edited by Snowflake on 23 November 2011 at 3:08am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Snowflake Senior Member United States Joined 5960 days ago 1032 posts - 1233 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 512 of 740 23 November 2011 at 2:36am | IP Logged | ||
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Everplayer,
The first phrase is from an elementary PopUp Chinese podcast lesson dialog.... 甲: 我刚买了一大瓶芬达放在厨房里了。 wǒ gāng mǎi le yī dà píng fēndá fàng zài chúfáng lǐ le 。 I just bought a big bottle of Fanta and put it in the kitchen. 乙: 是吗，我最喜欢喝芬达了。 shìma ， wǒ zuì xǐhuān hē fēndá le 。 Really, I love drinking Fanta. 甲: 正好就着披萨一起喝，我们去吃吧。 zhènghǎo jiùzhe pīsà yīqǐ hē ， wǒmen qù chī ba 。 And it's really good together with pizza. Let's go eat. 甲: 啊？原始人在厨房里！ a ？ yuánshǐrén zài chúfáng lǐ ！ Oh? There's a caveman in the kitchen! 乙: 我的芬达。 wǒde fēndá My Fanta! 甲: 噢，那可是最后一瓶了。 o ， nà kě shì zuìhòu yī píng le 。 Oh, but that's the last bottle. 享用 shows up in one of my animated movies, "Over the Hedge". It's used in the opening scene. For people familiar with the film, the bear uses that word when saying that the entire food stash had better be there when he wakes up again in a week. The bear is threatening to eat the raccoon so it seems a little odd that a polite term would be used. Edited by Snowflake on 23 November 2011 at 2:44am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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