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Comprehensible input?

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Autarkis
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 Message 9 of 16
25 August 2008 at 4:54am | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:
I'm sorry if it came across that way, but I had no intention on making any statement about how baby's brains work. As far as I can see it's a side issue that is of no consequence to the adult learner.

However, since we've gone down that road, you may have your "mama" thing back-to-front. I'm told that in the majority of the world's languages the familiar word for a mother is monosyllabic or disyllabic, and consists only of M sounds and plain vowels.

The most likely reason for this, they say, is that "m" is the first consonant a child can clearly pronounce, seeing as it's just an opening and closing of the mouth.


Interesting, and plausible.

Cainntear wrote:
There's a school of thought that says that when a child first says "mama", it isn't really saying anything -- it's just making noise.


I really agree, and would like to add: Language is noise with meaning.


Cainntear wrote:
Instead, they suggest it is the mother who imposes meaning onto this utterance and builds this association in.


Yes, exactly! The baby doesn't mean mama, the mother teaches it what that just meant.


Cainntear wrote:
Much of the initial vocabulary can be explained in the same way. This theory can be extended to suggest that the next step is to mimic more complex words without having any initial association, and for the association to be developed after the fact by observing the effects. At some unknown point, this will give way to understanding before producing.


Hm, I agree somewhat. I've got to add that many psychologists have this idea that at one point in child development, a sense for the abstract develops, though they can't explain how that happens on a neuronal level. Also, there's the issue of neologisms, the creation of words, sometimes by mistakes who sound "funny", sometimes out of need (For example: There's no word for what a brother wants to tell her sister, so he makes one up and explains - to her, it's just a new word.)

Cainntear wrote:
However, an important thing here is that we don't know how a child learns, and until we do, it's impossible to replicate it.


Well, I disagree on this point. Of course, there will probably always be things about our brain we don't understand, but we've got the basics of learning down. Pretty much.

Cainntear wrote:
More important though is that a child's brain has massively higher potential for direct association than an adult's, so we're unlikely to be able to copy it, even when we finally know it all.


Hm, do you have a reference for that?

Cainntear wrote:
Yes, but there are plenty of words that recurr in these contexts. In news stories about cars, we often have the phrase "at the wheel" and the announcer may talk about the wheels hitting the kerb. The longer we operate under the assumption that a car is a "wheel", the harder it is to realise that a wheel is a wheel.


Ah no, I disagree, the opposite is true. We might operate on such a false assumption for years, but then it hits us like lightning and we can easily revise. I've done it, the last time while watching CSI in Italian, they talked about "eroico" and I thought it had to do with sex (erotic), but it was the Marines (heroic) *lol*. I've operated under this false assumption for nearly half an hour, but I'm not going to make the same mistake again.


Cainntear wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone could learn anything without some sort of feedback.


The images are the feedback in this case. ;) And note, I didn't say you could learn properly. I said you might pick something up. I also pointed out that it would be inefficient.


Cainntear wrote:
Everyone I know who claims to have learned through absorption has a well-thumbed dictionary and grammar on the shelf. I've never met anyone who has ever learned entirely passively.


There are some illegal aliens here in Switzerland who claim they've done it, and their German is horrible. But I guess, if you can't go to the authorities, can't get a legal job, getting a dictionary isn't going to be your first priority, so I guess I believe them. But their German was horrible, barely understandable and lacking vocabulary.
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Cainntear
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 Message 10 of 16
25 August 2008 at 11:33am | IP Logged 
Autarkis wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
More important though is that a child's brain has massively higher potential for direct association than an adult's, so we're unlikely to be able to copy it, even when we finally know it all.


Hm, do you have a reference for that?

No particular references, but basic neuroscience: during the early years, the brain produces a humungous number of synapses and then starts killing them almost as quickly. This is physiologically totally different from the dendrite and synaptic response changes in later life.

Quote:
Cainntear wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone could learn anything without some sort of feedback.


The images are the feedback in this case. ;)

No they're not -- they're part of the input. Feedback is a response to the learner. The images do not respond.

Quote:
Cainntear wrote:
Everyone I know who claims to have learned through absorption has a well-thumbed dictionary and grammar on the shelf. I've never met anyone who has ever learned entirely passively.


There are some illegal aliens here in Switzerland who claim they've done it, and their German is horrible. But I guess, if you can't go to the authorities, can't get a legal job, getting a dictionary isn't going to be your first priority, so I guess I believe them. But their German was horrible, barely understandable and lacking vocabulary.

What, you mean they never talked to anyone? Shopkeepers, bosses, landlords etc? If they talk, they're get feedback and it's active learning. I wasn't meaning to suggest that all learners have a grammar book, but that all have some sort of feedback.
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Autarkis
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 Message 11 of 16
25 August 2008 at 4:10pm | IP Logged 
Cainntear wrote:

No particular references, but basic neuroscience: during the early years, the brain produces a humungous number of synapses and then starts killing them almost as quickly. This is physiologically totally different from the dendrite and synaptic response changes in later life.


No, actually it isn't. It's been proven that the same mechanisms govern adult learning as kid's learning. I guess you're right about the numbers - kid's brains having more synapses - but it's unknown to me if this translates directly into more information of one kind (i.e. vocabulary) being learned. It seems obvious, and the speed with which kids pick up their language is amazing - but that could in part be the result of a hitherto completely unused Broca and Sylphic area.


Cainntear wrote:

No they're not -- they're part of the input. Feedback is a response to the learner. The images do not respond.


Ah, I disagree. Lets say you watch TV. You've got the basics of Mandarin. Someone tells a simple joke, and when you expect him to give the punchline, everyone in the TV audience is laughing. You don't get it, because you thought the word he said last meant "car". Then, a human mascot dressed like an ape comes in and everyone in the audience is laughing more! You could easily think "Hm, did that what I meant was 'car' actually mean 'ape'? - Yes, now I get the joke!"

That's not a total contradiction to what you said, because in a sense, the TV audience is your social environment giving you feedback, and as a common "code" you're seeing the same images. That's enough.

Cainntear wrote:
What, you mean they never talked to anyone? Shopkeepers, bosses, landlords etc? If they talk, they're get feedback and it's active learning. I wasn't meaning to suggest that all learners have a grammar book, but that all have some sort of feedback.


No, you're right. I got sidetracked and meant to illustrate that pure practical learning without grammar and dictionary was possible, but leads to low competence in language use.
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reineke
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 Message 12 of 16
25 August 2008 at 4:33pm | IP Logged 
Autarkis wrote:


Cainntear wrote:
I would be very surprised if anyone could learn anything without some sort of feedback.


The images are the feedback in this case. ;) And note, I didn't say you could learn properly. I said you might pick something up. I also pointed out that it would be inefficient.


Cainntear wrote:
Everyone I know who claims to have learned through absorption has a well-thumbed dictionary and grammar on the shelf. I've never met anyone who has ever learned entirely passively.


There are some illegal aliens here in Switzerland who claim they've done it, and their German is horrible. But I guess, if you can't go to the authorities, can't get a legal job, getting a dictionary isn't going to be your first priority, so I guess I believe them. But their German was horrible, barely understandable and lacking vocabulary.


Getting a German book and having a crack at it (without a dictionary) won't be their first priority either. They'll go home and likely tune to a Turkish/Arabic/whatever TV channel. Assuming you can crack the initial n in the n+1 formula, you can get to a very high level of proficiency without grammar books and dictionaries.
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DaraghM
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 Message 13 of 16
26 August 2008 at 5:56am | IP Logged 
Javi wrote:

Yeah, both the baby and the guy on the island get incomprehensible input, but only the baby get also comprehensible input. That's way one learn the language and the other not.


I totally disagree with this. The man is the only person capable of deriving comprehensible input, while the baby has a serious set back. If I listen to a continous radio broadcast in Mandarin, and I hear a phone ring, I'm pretty confident the next word is a greeting, or a query about whose talking. A baby wouldn't know what the phone sound represented. Similarly, other sound effects, would allow me to figure out words associated with thirst, money, cars, as well as the emotional content of some exchanges. Other clues can be deduced from linguistic features such as paralanguage and prosidy.


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TheElvenLord
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 Message 14 of 16
26 August 2008 at 10:45am | IP Logged 
Quote:
Assuming you can crack the initial n in the n+1 formula


Whats the n+1 formula?

Thanks
TEL
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reineke
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 Message 15 of 16
26 August 2008 at 11:51am | IP Logged 
Sorry, the initial unknown in the i+1 formula. Moving away from the absolute 0 in language learning. Krashen is interesting but a bit weak on the initial stage.

I like the "Talking (output) is not practicing" part...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensible_input

Edited by reineke on 26 August 2008 at 11:58am
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reineke
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 Message 16 of 16
26 August 2008 at 12:10pm | IP Logged 
DaraghM wrote:
Javi wrote:

Yeah, both the baby and the guy on the island get incomprehensible input, but only the baby get also comprehensible input. That's way one learn the language and the other not.


I totally disagree with this. The man is the only person capable of deriving comprehensible input, while the baby has a serious set back. If I listen to a continous radio broadcast in Mandarin, and I hear a phone ring, I'm pretty confident the next word is a greeting, or a query about whose talking. A baby wouldn't know what the phone sound represented. Similarly, other sound effects, would allow me to figure out words associated with thirst, money, cars, as well as the emotional content of some exchanges. Other clues can be deduced from linguistic features such as paralanguage and prosidy.



Acquisition in Extreme Conditions. Do take some time to explore the site.

http://www.timothyjpmason.com/WebPages/LangTeach/Licence/CM/ OldLectures/L3_ExtremeCircs.htm

http://clerccenter.gallaudet.edu/Products/Sharing-Ideas/afir st/critspoken.html

Cannot vouch for radio, but after 20 long years both the child and the now very old adult would know Mandarin like a song with TV exposure. They would likely sound differently and the kid would certainly rock. I've read about a few cases where one kid learned Italian and another French solely through TV exposure in much shorter time. Never ended in newspapers but that's how I learned Italian and some German. The difference between radio and TV is interesting. Radio lacks the visual component but allows you to concentrate on the sound.

Edited by reineke on 26 August 2008 at 12:42pm


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