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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| heartburn Senior Member United States Joined 7210 days ago 355 posts - 350 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 17 of 33 16 April 2005 at 6:47pm | IP Logged |
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That sounds like a great program.
I assume the FSI drills would be variation and replacement drills. I would say make that section 25 minutes. I think a CD can hold 70 minutes of audio. I wouldn't mind if the last section wasn't always a dialog. Maybe mix in some cultural articles read aloud or a mock radio commercial or something. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7318 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 18 of 33 16 April 2005 at 7:29pm | IP Logged |
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Right. It wouldn't have to be a dialogue as long as it's 10 minutes of pure target language at full speed.
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| guillaume Pentaglot Groupie France Joined 7184 days ago 59 posts - 57 votes Speaks: French*, English, German, Spanish, Japanese Studies: Mandarin | Message 19 of 33 17 April 2005 at 2:07am | IP Logged |
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I think that a very good exercise that should be included is a role play.
By this I mean, the speaker describes a situation (that could be broad and not as directed as Pimsleur) and asks you what you would say. It should be done entirely in the target language so that pupils only think in that language. I think this would be a good exercise as it would force people to really think of a way to use the language. I would also like to see in a dream program is a use of both formal language and informal language right at the beginning. I often get very frustrated at language course that do not teach me colloquial language because let's face it the first form of language I often need to use is colloquial language and not formal language. I think that for the speed of speech it should start with some slow tracks for the first lessons so as to practice the pronunciation well (it's good to hear overemphasized slow pronunciation at the beginning) but there should still be a track with the dialogues at normal speed. As the lessons progress the speed should go quicker to reach the speed of a native speaker and speaker with non standard accent (for example for french, from Marseille or Montreal) should be introduced. This would help to get the pronunciation right at the beginning and then to really improve the listenning skills. As for the book, I think it should also include some readers. I mean little stories that match the level so far and the student could try to understand. This would be very important for languages with a different script. A last thing that should be done is having as little instructions or speech in the 'source' language as possible. Edited by Malcolm on 17 April 2005 at 1:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Artur Newbie Poland Joined 7166 days ago 9 posts - 11 votes | Message 20 of 33 17 April 2005 at 3:37pm | IP Logged |
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It would be great if the newly introduced vocabulary was explained thoroughly. I hate it when there are only one-to-one translations often without even clearly stating the gender of the word. What about indicating if it's a regular or irregualar verb, for example, and a short hint to which group it belongs. I mean something like: sentir (-ie-) (past 3th p. sintió -ieron) (subj.sintamos -ais) perhaps using some symbols instead of the above abbreviations. Why not give all the usual prepositions after a verb and an adjective: to forgive (to sb. for sth) or angry (with sb, about sth). Is it asking too much? Edited by administrator on 17 April 2005 at 11:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Malcolm Triglot Retired Moderator Senior Member Korea, South Joined 7318 days ago 500 posts - 515 votes 5 sounds Speaks: English*, Spanish, Korean Studies: Mandarin, Japanese, Latin | Message 21 of 33 17 April 2005 at 9:54pm | IP Logged |
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This course is starting to sound a lot like Platiquemos. By the way, did anyone else notice that Don Casteel, the Platiquemos guy, recently joined the forum? I hope he posts something.
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| Latin Newbie Chile Joined 7002 days ago 6 posts - 7 votes | Message 22 of 33 22 October 2005 at 11:12am | IP Logged |
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As most of the programs are heavily focused on content, have you ever thought about a structural approach rather than a content approach as the first step to master a language?
Wouldn't it be easier to tell a beginner how to use the words instead of what to memorize to ask food in a restaurant? For ex. when you study multiplication, you must learn how to multiply or must memorize all the basic results like 3*3=9, 3*4=12 and so on? So I think it would be more useful if I say to a student how to put a verb in his past form when it's regular rather than teach him: "Well, the past form of play is played, of walk is walked, of learn is learned", etc.etc. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| JWC Groupie United States Joined 7101 days ago 69 posts - 107 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 23 of 33 22 October 2005 at 1:02pm | IP Logged |
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Vale, Latin. Dixisti:
"As most of the programs are heavily focused on content, have you ever thought about a structural approach rather than a content approach as the first step to master a language? Wouldn't it be easier to tell a beginner how to use the words instead of what to memorize to ask food in a restaurant?" That's a good observation, but I'm switching to English to respond for the benefit of the non-classicists. I have been working through Programmatic Spanish after purchasing it through Learning Spanish Like Crazy (I also got the LSLC material and the Basic Spanish 3 & 4, which is second half of the complete Basic Spanish course--what you get after Barron's Mastering Spanish Levels One & Two). I also own Barron's Mastering Spanish Level One, and have browsed through Barron's Mastering Spanish Level Two. I have had really good luck with the FSI Basic language programs in the past, dabbling with Hebrew and Modern Greek, and brushing up on French, and was eager to acquire FSI materials when I decided to get serious about learning some Spanish. It has been interesting to compare FSI Programmatic Spanish to FSI Basic Spanish (and the difference ties in with your observation). The Programmatic Spanish course introduction blurb made no sense to me when I started working through the material. It basically says the difference between FSI "Programmatic" Spanish and FSI "Basic" Spanish is that the Programmatic Spanish has "programmed" instruction. That begs the question, what the heck is "programmed" instruction compared to Basic Spanish? (The introduction never explains). But I think I can boil down some key differences now that I am at Lesson 16 in Programmatic Spanish (I'll call it "PSp" and Basic Spanish "BSp" to save on typing). PSp uses far fewer words with a heavier emphasis on the structure of Spanish. It is a structural approach. The idea is you will know how to make conditional clauses, switch tenses, use the common subjunctive forms, pretty thoroughly and instinctively by the end of PSp 2, but you will only have used about 1400 words total. In fact, by the end of PSp One (the first book), you encounter only about 450 words. So there is a heavy emphasis on burning into one's brain thesyntax, tense and mood changes, and agreement of subject/verb or noun/noun modifiers, rather than focusing on the acquisition of vocabulary. PSp appears to go a lot farther than Basic Spanish 1 & 2 in grammar (purportedly beyond the grammar set out in a year of college Spanish) in a quicker amount of time. That is because there is a heavier emphasis on varied vocabulary in Basic Spanish. However, PSp One & Two does not cover the grammar you would get by the end of Basic Spanish 3 & 4. And posts to this discussion forum have indicated that Basic Spanish introduces about 3000-3500 words by the end of all four levels. So if you had to pick only one course and learning the structure of the language fast is not the priority, Basic Spanish Levels 1-4 would better serve that objective. Plus, Basic Sapnish has so many hours of substitution drills with wider vocabulary that you get a far better work out in developing fluent pronunciation and command of vocabulary, by the end of Level 4. All of this being said, I do not have to make that choice because I have both materials at hand--so I prefer working through PSp One & Two first before going back to complete the Basic Spanish levels, for some specific reasons. 1. PSp gets into the meat of the language sooner. I am an impatient person with a good grounding in languages in general. It is very satisfying to jump into preterite tenses and commands quickly, instead of developing a wider vocabulary using only present indicative. There is a certain "excitement" factor for my short attention span that keeps me more motivated. 2. With structure burned into my brain, I am starting to read and hear Spanish very quickly. In Texas, there are Spanish signs everywhere and Spanish commercials. All of a sudden, with a swiftly developing linguistic structure, I can really "read" and understand a number of things. It feels a bit like cracking the Rosetta Stone's code, because the leaps are exponential instead of gradual. 3. The irregularities in grammar come from the basic words, not the complex words. The irregular words in any language are the words we use so commonly that there is no need to "regularize" and simplify them because everyone encounters them on a daily basis. Therefore, frontloading the grammar means easy acquisition of vocabulary later, with more regular grammar for less commonly encountered words. Spanish is a Romance language--that means the "hard" words that an educated person would speak are very similar to the counterparts in French or English--the hard words all stem from the same Latin cognates. That is why people who learn one Romance language (or have a high level English vocabulary) can work pretty far through articles or books after getting the basic grammar and irregulars down. Summary--burn structure into yoru brain and you can acquire vocabulary fast, later. 4. Immediate payoff with PSp means I will have more patience with Basic Spanish. A lot of the observations I have just made have to do with personality types. A person with a better ability to delay gratification would not find these remarks persuasive. But I have encountered one significant problem with Basic Courses for my short-term attention span--if you do not do the course full time, there is such a wait to go to the next grammatical concept that there is a danger of shifting attention to the exciting oddities of another language. But it is much easier to turn back to repetitive drills if you already have a foundation, because there is another kind of pleasure in refining prononciation and increasing fluency, when there is already a decent foundation in a language. 5. PSp places more emphasis on pronunciation and repetition for the dialogues. The dialogues reach a "slow" natural speed (never racing through, but normal as opposed to baby-talk slow). But the course also works on pronouncing each word and reviews several past dialogues with each new dialogue section. There are aspect to prononciation that I was loosing with Mastering Spanish (Basic Level One) that I can now distinguish after reaching Level 16 of PSp. With more of a grounding, I can go through Basic's rat-a-tat-tat speed without losing subtle aspects of pronunciation that are still there but hard to hear. It is great that Basic Spanish goes quickly--that develops the ear and tongue for fast native conversations, but it is easier if that is built on a stronger foundation first. On the other hand, I have a much easier time working with something like Basic French (with a rusty but at one time solid grounding in French) because I know in the back of my brain where things are going with the progression in the language, so I can focus on developing fluency instead of wondering when or how I will get to the point of expressing or understanding more advanced grammatical concepts. After burning PSp 1 & 2 into my brain, I can coast through Basic Levels 1 & 2 and then somewhere in 3 & 4 start to encounter more grammar but at a point when the grammar is presented more systematically and the dialogues and readings become more interesting. Many people have gone from PSp 1 & 2 into Basic Spanish 3 & 4, but my goal is to develop fluency so it seems like doing all 4 Basic Levels will only reinforce PSp with new vocabulary and dialogue, and many more hours of practice. By using both courses, there is no tradeoff or sacrifice of material but I think I am having more fun and am more motivated than I would be if I approached the sequence differently or left out PSp. But a different personality type with a different learning style might be turned off by PSp's heavier written emphasis. Potential Drawback to PSp format: PSp requires substantially more use of the books. With Basic Spanish, you can spend about 15 minutes with the book learning a new dialogue and one or two simple grammar points, and then you are set for about 30 minutes of drills (the car ride to work that day, after reading grammar over coffe for 15 minutes in the morning). PSp, in contrast, requires me to read and outline the material to be able to do the drills. Once I have worked through the chapter once, I don't need to refer to it again to work with the audio. But it requires me about 1.5 hours to work through a chapter and write out all the drills on paper. Here again, it is a personality issue. If spending time with a book is torture, this would be a true drawback. But if your goal is to get the syntax of the language into your brain fast to start reading and speaking sooner (i.e., to "take off the training wheels"), then it really helps to outline grammar and write out written exercises that you pronounce for practice. If I read, write, speak, and then review my own notebook summarizing the language--and combine that with audio tapes while running or driving--I "put" the language into my brain faster and take ownership of the words and grammar. (By ownership, I mean it ceases to be words and grammar I passively "recognize" and becomes tools that I actually use). If you find relaxing with a cup of herbal tea in the evening for 30 minutes with a notebook and foreign language course material helps you to relax and fall asleep, what I am describing is a benefit that flows quite naturally from PSp. Don't get me wrong--I spend my jogging time and driving time working on dialogues and drills just like I did on Basic course materials--but that is overlaid by 30 minutes or so work each evening or morning that I find a real pleasure but someone else might find tedious. Summary for anyone who made it to this point in the post with a short attention span (which would include me): 1. PSp gets you there and puts it into your brain more quickly; 2. PSp requires more book and writing time to put it into your brain to make it something you own and possess; 3. Basic takes you even farther, with more grammar spread out over 4 levels and more material to develop fluency; 4. Basic involves less book time and lets you work on briefer book sessions in between audio segments. 5. Both courses are good courses, with distinct goals and tradeoffs--but I can understand why people would want to do Basic Levels 1 - 4 if they had to make a choice and could only work through one set of materials. One other thing I am looking forward to is working through the non-FSI LSLC material. It seems to follow the Pimsleur approach but has a wider exposure to vocabulary with transcriptions of each lesson. However, I have simply browsed through those lessons and have not started on them systematically, so I cannot provide any in depth observations at this point. After cruising through PSp 1 & 2 at breakneck speed, I am going to try interspersing the LSLC lessons with Basic and will provide feedback. Hopefully, by then I will have mastered the "tr" sound (the one gringo slip I can't seem to shake even though I can finally roll my "rr"s, like Charro on TV after 10 cups of espreso). --jwc Edited by JWC on 22 October 2005 at 1:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| JWC Groupie United States Joined 7101 days ago 69 posts - 107 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French | Message 24 of 33 24 October 2005 at 7:20am | IP Logged |
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I didn't read closely enough when last posting... I thought this thread was comparing different programs that exist, but I went back and saw that it is talking about what would make the perfect program in theory.
That is an interesting question. I think I would prepare a program that sets out grammar in easy to read visual charts, has FSI type dialogues and drills, starts out slower on each dialogue to work on pronunciation, systematically reviews old material (e.g., old drills on various grammar techniques are systematically reviewed to keep from getting rusty on things set out several lessons before). One problem that bothers me in any language course I have seen is that one inevitably finds hard to understand grammar explanations every now and then, and the unintentional introduction of some grammar points without an explanation and out of sequence (i.e., perhaps several chapters before the topic is actually covered). I have thought on occasion that it would be fun to create a language course, e.g., Spanish, using all of the dialogue and drills from Basic Spanish (and perhaps combiniWing them with Programmatic Spanish), but create a new "textbook" that really sets out the grammatically explanations clearly and visually. The material is public domain, so the idea would be to make a new book for all of the material and perhaps resequence and recycle the material to create more systematic review of grammar after moving on to new material. I might include a full answer key for written questions so the auto-didact (self-taught student) does not reinforce errors without correction. Entertaining to think about... 1 person has voted this message useful |
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