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Russian and Ukrainian- why not dialects? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| vuisminebitz Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6575 days ago 86 posts - 108 votes  Speaks: Yiddish, English*, Spanish Studies: Swahili | Message 25 of 31 13 August 2007 at 1:03am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I've been told that my great grandfather spoke Russian and Ukranian
while my great grandmother only spoke Ukranian and no Russian (they were both Ukranian and spoke Yiddish to each other and both learned English and some Hebrew, my great grandfather learned Russian in the Soviet army). It's just an ancedote but I've been told that she could understand much of what he said when he spoke to her jokingly in Russian but often she'd misunderstand things entirely, thinking she understood more than she actually did. As I can't speak either language I can't judge but I get the feeling from talking to people that speak them that the two are close but far enough to be considered seperate languages, like maybe Italian vs Sicilian or Catalan vs Land'oc. Yiddish and German are a good but not a great comparison because so much Yiddish vocab comes from a totally foreign language family (Afro-Asiatic: Semitic from Hebrew and there is also a strong Slavic influence) while almost all Russian and Ukranian words come from the same Slavic sources, they have just varied with time (I think?). I also think the fact that I can distinguish between Ukranian, Russian and Polish (I hear them spoken a lot where I live in Philly) when spoken even though I don't speak these languages at all means that they are different languages. I've also seen Russian and Ukranian speakers realize they speak different languages when speaking to each other and switch to English or Yiddish to faciliate communication instead of trying to work out speaking different languages to each other. However I usually can't tell Russian and Belurussian apart, (which means nothing obviously as I usually can't tell Turkish and Kurdish apart and they are quite different but I think its worth noting that the others sound different. I also don't hear Turkish or Kurdish that often, it just comes to mind because I accidently offended a Kurd recently by mistaking his language for Turkish. Oh well, that's what happens when your "enemies" (at least your current political ones according to political leaders, not personal ones) speak a language that's close to your own. Anyone who speaks white Russian have an insight to give? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| el topo Diglot Groupie Belgium Joined 6761 days ago 66 posts - 71 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Dutch | Message 26 of 31 13 August 2007 at 7:37am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Politics aside, Ukrainian is not a dialect of Russian, it's certainly a separate language. The differences are comparable to those between German and Dutch. I normally do not understand spoken Ukrainian, i.e. if it's real Ukrainian and not Surzhyk. The latter, by the way, is partly responsible for this false impression (shared by many in Russia) that Ukrainian is completely transparent to Russian speakers. Edited by el topo on 13 August 2007 at 7:38am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| karuna Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6335 days ago 47 posts - 46 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Latvian*, Russian, English Studies: Spanish, Japanese | Message 27 of 31 13 August 2007 at 8:06am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I am afraid that the wikipedia article about Surzhik is biased. It seems strange that it calls Canadian Ukrainian as an example of mixed language and doesn't mention the dialect continuum in Ukraine at all. For many native Ukrainians Surzhik is the only language they can speak although they can understand both standard Russian and Ukrainian. I think that Surzhik is closer to pidgin or even creole than Ukrainian nationals would like us to believe.
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| karuna Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6335 days ago 47 posts - 46 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Latvian*, Russian, English Studies: Spanish, Japanese | Message 28 of 31 13 August 2007 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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I think that this article better explains what is surzhyk.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 29 of 31 15 August 2007 at 1:35am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Of course I can't be absolutely sure, but that's what I think:
other translations seem correct to me.
about the second one, I'm not sure if it means "how are you" or "how are you feeling".
Not 100% sure, but I'd say вибачте means excuse. the first one is correct.
There's a rarely-used Russian word дюжий btw, which means something like strong (I actually had to ask my father about that, I wasn't sure myself!). Frankly speaking it took me some time to understand that дуже sounded similar to тоже to you, to me it doesn't really... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| TDC Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 6922 days ago 261 posts - 291 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin, French Studies: Esperanto, Ukrainian, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Persian | Message 30 of 31 15 August 2007 at 8:32am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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It looks like Serpent got it all right as far as I can tell but for the sake of completeness here's a list of the answers, with the Russian it was translated from for comparison:
Що він любить? Что он любит? What does he like? Він любить чай? Он любит чай? Does he like tea? Я нічого не люблю. Я ничего не люблю. I don't like anything Він дуже любить коньяк. Он очень любит коньяк. He *really* likes cognac. Я дуже люблю російську мову. Я очень люблю русский язык I *really* like [the] Russian [language.] Я не знаю, але ось мій брат. Він знає. Я не знаю, но вот мой брат. Он знает. I don't know, *but here's* my brother. He knows. Я починаю сьогодні Я начинаю сегодня I *start today/I'm beginning today.* Як ся маєте? Как вы поживаете? *How are you?/How's it going?/What's up?* Можливо ви не знаєте його добре. Может быть вы не знаете его хорошо Maybe you don't know him well. Вибачте його, він вас не розумає. Извините его, он вас не понимает *Excuse* him, he doesn't understand you. Як повільно їде таксі. Как медленно едет такси. How slowly the cab is going В котрі годині їде поізд до Москви? В котором часу идёт поезд в Москву? At what hour [does] the train to Moscow leave? Я впевен, що ми запізднилися. Вже п'ята година Я уверен, что мы опаздали. Уже 5 часов *I'm sure* we are late. *It's already* 5 o'clock. Я вчора багато працював і дуже втомився Я вчера много работал и очень устал. Yesterday I *worked* a lot and *I'm really tired* Мені дуже хочеться спати. Мне очень хочется спать. I *really* want to sleep. ***Note*** As to любить being любити in Ukrainian... My wife says кохати is used in the sense I love smone. whereas любити is used to say I like/love smthing Thus the McDonald's slogan "I'm loving it" is translated as: Я це люблю. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| karuna Triglot Groupie United States Joined 6335 days ago 47 posts - 46 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Latvian*, Russian, English Studies: Spanish, Japanese | Message 31 of 31 15 August 2007 at 8:57am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Many thanks. One question: is it really "5'o clock" or a Ukrainian version of the Russian "pyatiy chas" as indicated by Serpent?
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