On L-R (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

On L-R
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

164 messages over 21 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 5 ... 20 21 Next >>

Volte
Tetraglot
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Switzerland
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Message 33 of 164

25 March 2009 at 11:22pm | IP Logged

atamagaii wrote:

The key to L-R is sensory memory, usually completely overlooked by learners.

Quote:

... information that first comes to us through our senses is stored for a fleeting moment within sensory memory. Because of the transitory nature of this memory system, we usually are not consciously aware of it, nor do we actively organize or encode this information. The function of this memory system seems to be to hold or preserve impressions of sensory stimuli just long enough for important aspects of this information to be transferred to the next system, short-term memory.

Visual sensory memory is called iconic memory. It includes images of what we see.

an image stored in iconic memory generally fades from usefulness within approximately 0.3 seconds.

Echoic (Auditory) Memory You may have noticed an auditory afterimage or echo when you have turned off the radio and the voice of a commentator seems to linger momentarily. This auditory sensory memory is called echoic memory.

Research indicates that auditory sensory memory for language stimuli lasts up to two seconds.

We also seem to recall information better if we hear it rather than see it.
Crooks & Stein PSYCHOLOGY SCIENCE, BEHOVIOR AND LIFE

An educated person reads faster than anyone speaks. So we have time to analyze what we are hearing. You MUST analyze, L-R is not mechanical. If you don't analyze or are just incapable of doing it, L-R is useless for you. You must analyze quickly enough without stopping the tape too often. It is a demanding task. If you are not intelligent enough, you won’t be able to do it, either. To some extent L-R is similar to simultaneous interpretation. The more difficult the text, the greater the similarity.

An incubation period is needed to acquire a new skill (listening comprehension), you must get enough input. Too short a text is useless for L-R. Handbooks are too short and usually extremely boring.

You only remember what you understand and what is relevant to you. Beginners need word-for-word translation (plus some grammar explanations, if necessary).

Texts should be self-explanatory, you should know in advance the meaning of what you are going to hear.

If you do L-R not intensively enough, it will be useless for you. The more difficult the text you begin with, the more intensive L-R should be. Two hours a day seems to be the minimum for relatively easy texts.

Parallel texts are extremely useful. The more difficult the text, the more useful they become. The columns shouldn’t be too wide, not more than eight cm, you can jump from one column to the other if necessary without stopping the recording too often. E-texts are more useful, you can use a pop-up dictionary.

For Japanese texts, there should be three columns:
kanji (without furigana) – hiragana transcription with spaces – translation plus grammar.
或日の暮方の事である。あるひのくれがたのことである。 translation in your language
A good pop-up dictionary is necessary.

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Dark_Sunshine
Diglot
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United Kingdom
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Message 34 of 164

26 March 2009 at 1:45am | IP Logged

It says beginners need word for word translations... how would they get that? Imagine how many hours it would take to make one using a dictionary. I think that's why I don't understand how it can work at levels below intermediate. Don't get me wrong, I really want to believe it can, as I'd like to use the method when I eventually start Romanian (although ever tried getting Romanian audiobooks outside of Romania?) as the traditional materials available for this language are so dull.

Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to understand the L-R instructions... let alone enough to benefit from thee method!
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Volte
Tetraglot
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Message 35 of 164

26 March 2009 at 3:52am | IP Logged

Dark_Sunshine wrote:

It says beginners need word for word translations... how would they get that?

I disagree with atamagaii on this; they're not necessary.

As for how: depending on the language pair, there may already be some made.

Dark_Sunshine wrote:

Imagine how many hours it would take to make one using a dictionary.

Not doable; words have too many different translations, and you'll get all kinds of details about the word form wrong (it often won't correspond to your base language's word form, since the grammar and structures will often be different). It needs to be done by someone already fluent to be worthwhile, imho.

Dark_Sunshine wrote:

I think that's why I don't understand how it can work at levels below intermediate. Don't get me wrong, I really want to believe it can, as I'd like to use the method when I eventually start Romanian (although ever tried getting Romanian audiobooks outside of Romania?) as the traditional materials available for this language are so dull.

Well..... again, I'm not a language acquisition theorist. I don't understand _how_ it works at a pure beginner level, but it does.

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icing_death
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United States
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Speaks: English*

Message 36 of 164

26 March 2009 at 4:35am | IP Logged

aYa wrote:

I'm puzzled. There are so many people out there who are sure something does not work just because they believe so.

As for me, I'm sure it does work, with the stipulations I mentioned. On the other hand, I think it's misleading to convince people they can be fluent readers in 2 weeks. You can say they aren't trying hard enough, aren't using long enough texts, aren't using their heads, etc, but you fail to convince me.

aYa wrote:

Love thy neighbour and don't tell him the possible is impossible just because you can't get it up.

Congratulations! - you have just outdone Cainntear in the silliest analogy department.
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Alkeides
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Bhutan
Joined 6147 days ago
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Message 38 of 164

26 March 2009 at 2:22pm | IP Logged

The most common form of interlinear texts I've found are New Testaments and Qurans.

Recordings of the Quran, unfortunately, seem to be all chanted.

There are also some editions of Greek or Latin texts that have interlinear translations, I think "completely parsed" editions are the most useful; there are some 19th century editions that rearrange the words to fit English word order as far as the language in question allows. Here's an Aeneid done in that manner. This could be somewhat (barely) useful for poetry if you are finding it difficult to understand a passage but for prose it's horrible.

Edited by Alkeides on 26 March 2009 at 2:33pm
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Cainntear
Pentaglot
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Message 39 of 164

26 March 2009 at 3:03pm | IP Logged

Jimmymac wrote:

Now, instead of completely ignoring the anecdotal evidence of the likes of Volte, FSI, and myself over the all encompassing guiding (yet some what inconsistent at the best of times) light of science why don't you give 'L-R' a fair crack of the whip and see what happens. At the very least you will enjoy a couple of good novels.

Well first of all, there's that "at least two hours a day" thing. That's pretty hard to fit into an already busy schedule (working and studying Spanish).

Secondly, you could say the same thing about any and every learning technique. Am I not allowed to have a low opinion of Pimsleur because I've never finished a course? (The furthest I've evergot is exercise 7 in the Polish course.) Should I be giving Rosetta Stone a "good crack of the whip" rather than making rational judgements about its ability to teach verb tenses, pronouns etc?

There aren't enough hours in a day for me to make every decision based on intimate familiarity with everything -- I have to filter in advance, just like in the case of evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't give ginseng a "good crack of the whip" as a cancer cure based on a few people on the internet -- I'd go with radiotherapy or chemotherapy.

And finally -- you guys don't agree on what you do. The original require two texts (L1 and L2) and an audio(L2), whereas Volte talks about just L1 text and L2 audio. Nobody can agree on the necessary length of text and some people think both literal and idiomatic L1 translations are required, whereas others think only the idiomatic translation is required.

What exactly do you want me to try?!?

Edited by Cainntear on 26 March 2009 at 3:11pm
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Jimmymac
Senior Member
United Kingdom
strange-lands.com/le
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Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, French

Message 40 of 164

26 March 2009 at 3:27pm | IP Logged

Cainntear wrote:

Jimmymac wrote:

Fair enough. You don't have the time or the desire to try it but at the very least don't argue so vehemently against its effectiveness when you have zero experience with it. There are people here who claim it is a very effective method. Why make them out to be liars with an argument that uses unrelated 'scientific’ evidence as its crux.

How very dull and limited it would be to wait for what science has to tell you is the right route to go down before doing it, only to find out some time later that a new theory has emerged leaving the old route redundant. Good luck to you if that is what tickles your fancy. I prefer to experiment for myself and see what works.

Cainntear wrote:

There aren't enough hours in a day for me to make every decision based on intimate familiarity with everything -- I have to filter in advance, just like in the case of evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't give ginseng a "good crack of the whip" as a cancer cure based on a few people on the internet -- I'd go with radiotherapy or chemotherapy.

Do you really consider ginseng and radiotherapy a fair comparison? We are talking reading a book where all you will lose are a couple of hours; you are comparing it to losing your life. Of course you will use evidence based therapies in such extreme conditions.

Cainntear wrote:

And finally -- you guys don't agree on what you do. The original require two texts (L1 and L2) and an audio(L2), whereas Volte talks about just L1 text and L2 audio. Nobody can agree on the necessary length of text and some people think both literal and idiomatic L1 translations are required, whereas others think only the idiomatic translation is required.

What exactly do you want me to try?!?

EXPERIMENT FOR YOURSELF. Why do you need us (or science) to hold you hand? Be bold; make your own tracks. We may be standing on the shoulders of giants but that doesn't mean we shouldn't rely on our own creative ability.

Edited by Jimmymac on 26 March 2009 at 3:44pm

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