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ERGATIVITY - I’m having trouble with it | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Philological Room |  | |
| LpMagilicutty Newbie United States Joined 6186 days ago 24 posts - 26 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Tagalog, German, Italian, French | Message 9 of 28 26 April 2009 at 6:12am | IP Logged | ||
I'm not up on the technical details but this is what I know: The root word is "kain." The dictionary is organized by roots. The affixes -um- and -in- (among others) denote what is the main focus of the sentence. If the actor is the main focus then the verb is "kumain." If the object is in focus then the verb is "kinain." 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 10 of 28 26 April 2009 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | ||
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If there is a series af root words, that can be transformed into either 'active' or 'passive' verbal forms (with subject resp. object in focus), then it is logical to see Tagalog as a truly ergative language. My problem is that I can't see that in my dictionaries (2 different dictionaries English<->Tagalog by M.O.de Guzman, one Italian<->tagalog from Avallardi). The verb 'kumain' (to eat) is there, but not 'kinain'. However that is logical if you can transform any -um- into an -in (provided that it can have a logical object, i.e. is transitive).
All this would be much clearer if the dictionaries indicated whether the transformation was possible or not, and hopefully better dictionaries carry this vital piece of information - I did see one big large dictionary in the bookstores in Manila and it wasn't even too expensive,- but I simply couldn't find room for it in my only piece of luggege. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| GibberMeister Bilingual Pentaglot Groupie Scotland Joined 5807 days ago 61 posts - 67 votes Speaks: Spanish, Catalan, Lowland Scots*, English*, Portuguese | Message 11 of 28 27 April 2009 at 12:13am | IP Logged | ||
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You know something Iversen? I think you have lifted a veil from my eyes here. Those simple references to what may or may not be ergativity in English and French have made me understand the whole thing I think.
Spanish and Catalan too. My Basque is very basic, but I think I can progress now. Ergative languages then simply 'mark' the subjects and objects ina a certain way, often with different words altogetehr, though Indo European languages, despite displaying occasional ergativity, simply don't mark it. (As for Basque passives - I have no idea yet!) Again, thank you for the enlightenment thou hast provided me with! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| LpMagilicutty Newbie United States Joined 6186 days ago 24 posts - 26 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish, Mandarin, Tagalog, German, Italian, French | Message 12 of 28 27 April 2009 at 7:11am | IP Logged | ||
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If I may, I join in thanks, Iverson.
I was looking at Wikipedia on ergative languages. They suggest that while Tagalog is often classified as such, perhaps it needs it's own classification, namely, "Austronesian alignment." Kinain is kainin conjugated to "past tense." So the dictionary would only list kainin. (Kumain is past tense of kumain. The difference in spelling has been dropped over the centuries.) This is a great online dictionary: tagalog-dictionary com 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 13 of 28 29 April 2009 at 2:04am | IP Logged | ||
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Since writing the text above I have found a good online Tagalog grammar, and I now know the mechanisms that can transform a verb root into 'active' and 'passive' verbal forms (see my multiconfused log for more details). This - in combination with the fact that the topicalizer 'ang' plus an uninflected noun can be either subject or object makes me say that Tagalog probably could be seen as an ergative language, but also that the practical benefit of doing it seems more and more doubtful. After all the concept of ergative in the classical formulation presupposes that any language has cases (through they may have coalesced into just one case), and Tagalog doesn't really lend itself to this Latin-inspired analysis. The core notion in Tagalog is apparently focus, in combination with a number of markers some of which are integrated into the verb. Speaking about cases here just muddles our perception of the language.
Btw. it also seems to be a silly reminiscence from the Spanish time that verbs are listed under the infinitive forms in all of my dictionaries. The logical thing would be to list them under the root form and then point out which affixes are relevant for each verb. I'm sorry that I haven't had time to study Basque yet, so my comments to that language can't be very relevant. Edited by Iversen on 29 April 2009 at 2:15am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| izan Bilingual Tetraglot Newbie Spain letmewritealittlebit Joined 5868 days ago 20 posts - 34 votes 1 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Basque*, EnglishC1, FrenchC1 Studies: German | Message 14 of 28 30 April 2009 at 12:19am | IP Logged | ||
PASSIVE: Egunkariak erosiak izan dira = The newspapers have been bought. Egunkaria erosia izan da= The newspaper has been bought. Egunkariak Martinek erosiak izan dira= The newspapers have been bought by Martin. Egunkariak umeak erosiak izan dira= The newspapers have been bought by the kid. Egunkariak umeek erosiak izan dira= The newspapers have been bought by the kids. ACTIVE: Umeak egunkaria erosi du= The kid has bought the newspaper. Umeak egunkariak erosi ditu= The kid has bought the newspapers. Umeek egunkaria erosi dute= The kids have bought the newspaper. Umeek egunkariak erosi dituzte= The kids have bought the newspapers. I never thought about it before, but I've realised that I rarely use the passive voice when speaking Basque. If it is possible to use both to say the same thing, the active voice seems more natural to me. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 15 of 28 30 April 2009 at 10:01am | IP Logged | ||
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So in both cases Basque uses "egunkaria" ("egunkariak" in plural), i.e. the same word and presumably the same case. And therefore Basque is ergative.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| eskandar Triglot Newbie United States brownfolks.blogspot. Joined 5770 days ago 3 posts - 3 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Persian Studies: Azerbaijani, Urdu, Arabic (classical), Arabic (Written) | Message 16 of 28 05 May 2009 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | ||
Ancient Hurrian is completely unrelated to Kurdish and died out before Kurdish even existed as a language. Cherokee, Chinese, and Martian have likely had more influence on Kurdish than Hurrian. The same goes for the Kartvelian languages, which are also completely unrelated to Kurdish and have had very little contact (let alone influence) with Kurdish. Instead, Kurdish has inherited ergativity from its Indo-Iranian roots; other Indo-Iranian languages such as Pashto, Baluchi, and Hindi-Urdu share this feature. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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