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Better Dutch profile | ||
Tags: Dutch | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Collaborative writing |  | |
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes  1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 1 of 45 29 August 2009 at 1:35pm | IP Logged |
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I found the poposed Dutch profile TOO NEGATIVE and giving incorrect information in some parts. I have been a speaker of Dutch for 25 years, so I am comptent and qualified to write about this topic.
INTRODUCTION Dutch is an interesting language of the Germanic language family. It belongs to the smaller European languages and has most similarites with Afrikaans, Frisian, German and English. USEFULNESS I would recommend learning Dutch to all people who want to have - more than superficial - contact with Dutch speaking countries as there are: The Netherlands, Flanders as a part of Belgium, Surinam in South America and the Dutch Antilles (Aruba and Curacao).Speaking the language of these countries on a fluent level will bring you full acceptation and good friends, which is more worth than only short hotel contacts in English. In the Netherlands most people speak English and in the Eastern border region with Germany many people speak German (to a certain level, not always fluently). CHIC FACTOR People who want to learn Dutch, should learn the language well to avoid that natives might switch over to answering their Dutch questions in English or even German. Native Dutch speakers will be truly impressed as they are not so used to especially English or German visitors speaking their language and you as a foreign language speaker of Dutch will get the chance to receive a lot of compliments, if you speak the language fluently. People who categorically deny the chic factor of Dutch, are not well informed about Dutch language and culture, but rather rely on stereotypes. ECONOMIC IMPORTANCE Dutch is used as a business language in the border regions of Germany, like Nordrhein-Westfalen and Niedersachsen, in the departements of Northern France, in whole Belgium also in the French and German speaking parts and most likely in Luxemburg as well. There are some business jobs offered requiring fluent Dutch in speaking and writing and if you are qualified to apply for those, you will have only few competitors. Also in the German tourism regions of the Black Forest and Sauerland which are almost overpopulated by Dutch tourists you should speak Dutch fluently, if you want to find a good job in the tourism industry. TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES I have already summed up the countries where Dutch is spoken as a native language, see under "Usefulness". COUNTRIES Native language in: The Netherlands, Flanders as a part of Belgium, Surinam in South America and the Dutch Antilles (Aruba and Curacao). SPEAKERS No info. VARIATIONS In the Netherlands there are Dutch dialects spoken in provinces such as Limburg, Brabant, Groningen and Drenthe. Frisian is regarded as a seperate language, not as a Dutch dialect. Flemish is standard Dutch spoken in Belgium. But there are also Flemish dialects. CULTURE Each of the above mentioned countries, where Dutch is spoken natively, has its own typical culture. DIFFICULTIES See the following in detail. GRAMMAR People who don't like learning cases and declensions can be releived: The Dutch cases of the past centuries have been abolished, so learners of Dutch don't have to learn ANY cases! The verb system is very similar to the German one, so pevious knowledge of German would be helpful to learn it. Dutch nouns have two genders: "de" = male and female and "het" = neuter. To give examples it is "de man", "de vrouw" and "het kind". PRONUNCIATION It depends on the native language of the learner, how difficult the pronounciation of Dutch is. Dutch has more the reputation of being diffcult to pronounce than it really is. However, some typical Dutch diphtongs, such as "ui", "oe" "ei" and "ou" may be a bit tricky to ponounce for a beginner. VOCABULARY Dutch is a typical Germanic language. There are many English words used in Dutch especially for example in the fields of IT or technology. German words are often very similar to Dutch words, even if the writing looks different. For example "het boek" and "das Buch". TRANSPARENCY No info. SPELLING The spelling of Dutch is regular and logic, unlike English. You should learn the spelling rules well in the beginning, then spelling will not be a problem. Confusing for everyone inclusive the native speakers of Dutch are the frequent spelling reforms of the Dutch language. However, these bring only minor spelling changes, so foreign learners of Dutch should not worry much about such nitpicking details. TIME NEEDED It depends on the native language you have, possible previous knowlege of foreign languages similar to Dutch and your personal language learning abilities. Native speakers of Afrikaans, Frisian, German and English have an advantage learning Dutch. BOOKS The most rewarded editor of Dutch monolingual and bilingual dictionaries in the Netherlands and Belgium is "Van Dale". Especially for making Dutch translations on a professional level you should use the "Van Dale" series. If you are satisfied with cheap pocket dictionaries of various languages, then go for the "Prisma" series. SCHOOLS No info. LINKS No info. Edited by Fasulye on 30 August 2009 at 7:24am 9 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5864 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 2 of 45 24 September 2009 at 9:28am | IP Logged |
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Here are some grammatical changes that I propose:
INTRODUCTION Dutch is an interesting language of the Germanic family. It belongs to the smaller European languages and has the most similarites with Afrikaans, Frisian, German and English. USEFULNESS I would recommend learning Dutch to all people who want to have a more than superficial contact with the Dutch speaking countries, which include: the Netherlands, Flanders in Belgium, Surinam in South America and the Dutch Antilles (Aruba and Curacao). If you speak the language of these countries on a fluent level, you will be better accepted and deepen your friendships with the local people, which is certainly nicer than making just a few short hotel contacts in English. In the Netherlands most people speak English, and in the regions near its eastern border with Germany, many people speak German to at least a certain level, though not always fluently. CHIC FACTOR People who want to learn Dutch should learn the language well to prevent natives from responding to their Dutch questions in English or even German. Native Dutch speakers will be truly impressed as they are not accustomed to visitors, especially native English- and German-speakers, speaking their language. As a foreign language speaker of Dutch, you will without a doubt receive a lot of compliments if you speak the language fluently. People who categorically deny the chic factor of Dutch, are not well informed about Dutch language and culture, but rather rely on stereotypes. ECONOMIC IMPORTANCE Dutch is used as a business language in the border regions of Germany, like Nordrhein-Westfalen and Niedersachsen, in the departements of Northern France, in all of Belgium (even in the French and German speaking parts) and most likely in Luxemburg as well. There are some business jobs offered requiring fluent Dutch in speaking and writing, and if you are qualified to apply for those, you will have few competitors. Also in the German tourist regions of the Black Forest and Sauerland, which are almost overcrowded with Dutch tourists, you should speak Dutch fluently if you want to find a good job in the tourism industry. TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES I have already summed up the countries where Dutch is spoken as a native language, see under "Usefulness". COUNTRIES Native language in: the Netherlands, Flanders in Belgium, Surinam in South America and the Dutch Antilles (Aruba and Curacao). SPEAKERS No info. VARIATIONS In the Netherlands there are Dutch dialects spoken in provinces such as Limburg, Brabant, Groningen and Drenthe. Frisian is regarded as a seperate language, not as a Dutch dialect. Flemish is standard Dutch spoken in Belgium. But there are also Flemish dialects. CULTURE Each of the above mentioned countries, where Dutch is spoken natively, has its own typical culture. DIFFICULTIES See the following in detail. GRAMMAR People who don't like learning cases and declensions can be relieved: the Dutch cases of the past centuries have been abolished, so learners of Dutch don't have to learn ANY cases! The verb system is very similar to the German one, so pevious knowledge of German would be helpful. Dutch nouns have two genders: "de" = male and female and "het" = neuter. To give examples it is "de man", "de vrouw" and "het kind". PRONUNCIATION The difficulty of Dutch pronunciation depends on the native language of the learner. Dutch has the reputation of being more difficult to pronounce than it really is. However, some typical Dutch diphtongs, such as "ui", "oe" "ei" and "ou" may be a bit tricky to ponounce for a beginner. VOCABULARY Dutch is a typical Germanic language. There are many English words used in Dutch, especially in the fields of IT and technology. German words are often very similar to Dutch words, even if the writing looks different. For example "het boek" and "das Buch". TRANSPARENCY No info. SPELLING The spelling of Dutch is regular and logical, unlike English. You should learn the spelling rules well in the beginning, then spelling will not be a problem. The frequent spelling reforms can be confusing for everyone, including native speakers of Dutch. However, these only bring minor spelling changes, so foreign learners of Dutch should not worry much about such nitpicking details. TIME NEEDED It depends on the native language you have, possible previous knowlege of foreign languages similar to Dutch and your personal language learning abilities. Native speakers of Afrikaans, Frisian, German and English have an advantage learning Dutch. BOOKS The most rewarded editor of Dutch monolingual and bilingual dictionaries in the Netherlands and Belgium is "Van Dale". Especially for making Dutch translations on a professional level you should use the "Van Dale" series. If you are satisfied with cheap pocket dictionaries of various languages, then go for the "Prisma" series. SCHOOLS No info. LINKS No info. I don't know much about Dutch, but under the pronunciation it might be worthwhile to mention the Dutch R. And about the Chic Factor, there was always a fair amount of Dutch-speaking programmers in the different programming groups I was in and forums I visited, moreso than any other language group, though that could just be because there were more Dutch-speaking programmers proficient in English. Anyway, as a programmer, I always considered Dutch very chic (I know, this is just applying more stereotypes!). One last thing: I'm not so sure if it's best to say "personal language learning abilities". I don't know if you think people are born with a certain aptitude for learning languages, in which case that phrasing would be fine. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 3 of 45 11 October 2009 at 8:24pm | IP Logged |
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Crush, thanks for checking my Dutch profile from the view of an English native speaker. For long I didn't have a look in this subforum, therefore my reaction on your work comes a bit late.
Fasulye 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| pohaku Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5650 days ago 192 posts - 367 votes Speaks: English*, Persian Studies: Arabic (classical), French, German, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 4 of 45 11 October 2009 at 9:28pm | IP Logged |
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One thing I would find useful in these profiles would be a brief mention of the literature written in the language. Many of us learn languages specifically in order to read the great works in that language, and the enthusiasts who write these profiles could motivate potential learners by highlighting those great works. This is particularly important for the lesser-known languages, like Dutch, Lithuanian, and so forth.
4 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 5 of 45 13 October 2009 at 1:42pm | IP Logged |
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Listing up some valuable Dutch literature should do a person who is a competent reader of such literature. It's a good idea to do this, but I am a typical reader of non-fiction, so I cannot fulfil this task. Could somebody list up some "Great Books" of Dutch literature? Maybe a native speaker who had to read such books at school?
Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 13 October 2009 at 1:44pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Meadowmeal Pentaglot Groupie Netherlands Joined 5710 days ago 43 posts - 57 votes Speaks: Dutch*, French, English, German, Polish Studies: Romanian | Message 6 of 45 13 October 2009 at 8:43pm | IP Logged |
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There's a list of essential Dutch literature, compiled by members of the Maatschappij der Nederlandse Letterkunde, over here.
To Dutch-learners I would recommend: Gerard Reve, De avonden (1947) [only a good read if you "get" the humour] W.F. Hermans, Nooit meer slapen (1966) Herman Gorter, Mei (1889) [greatest Dutch poem ever] Louis Couperus, Van oude menschen, de dingen die voorbijgaan (1906) [language probably difficult] Hugo Claus, Het verdriet van België (1983) [essential if you're interested in Belgium] Nescio, De uitvreter / Titaantjes / Dichtertje (1918) [superb simple Dutch] Willem Elsschot, Lijmen (1924) / Het been (1938) / Kaas (1933) [ditto] F. Bordewijk, Karakter (1938) [Oscar-winning film] / Bint (1934) Frederik van Eeden, De kleine Johannes (1885-1906) Theo Thijssen, Kees de jongen (1923) Simon Vestdijk, Terug tot Ina Damman (1934) / De kellner en de levenden (1949) [compelling vision of the end of times] Harry Mulisch, De aanslag (1982) [Oscar-winning film] Martinus Nijhoff, Awater (1934) / Nieuwe gedichten (1934) / Het uur U (1936) [powerful poetry in "normal" Dutch] Jan Wolkers, Terug naar Oegstgeest (1965) [Recommended if you're "well-versed" in the Bible] Anne Frank, Het achterhuis (postuum, 1947) [even if you've already read a translation] Hella Haasse, Oeroeg (1948) And I would like to add "De eilanden" by A.Alberts (1953), Marten Toonder's Het kukel (1963) and the fables-that-aren't-fables of Toon Tellegen. Edited by Meadowmeal on 13 October 2009 at 9:04pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 45 13 October 2009 at 8:50pm | IP Logged |
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Meadowmeal, that's really useful for learners of Dutch interested in Dutch literature. Some of the well known authors I know by name, there are quite some Dutch authors translated into German, so I also read these names here in Germany. So if our Dutch profile gets posted on the Adminstrator's front page, this list of literature can be added.
Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 13 October 2009 at 8:51pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| pohaku Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5650 days ago 192 posts - 367 votes Speaks: English*, Persian Studies: Arabic (classical), French, German, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 8 of 45 13 October 2009 at 9:01pm | IP Logged |
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Meadowmeal--
Many thanks for the list. You put well what I was seeking: "Literature recommended for learners of Dutch"--or whatever language is being profiled. Such information may inspire, guide, motivate, and captivate us. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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