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Better Dutch profile | ||
Tags: Dutch | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Collaborative writing |  | |
| Hobbema Senior Member United States Joined 5740 days ago 541 posts - 575 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, French, Dutch | Message 17 of 45 06 October 2010 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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This is excellent. I do not spend a lot of time on the internet, but there are a few websites I use that others might find useful for learning Dutch. I didn't know if the actual links should be inserted or just listed?
www.rnw.nl – Radio Nederland Wereldomroep (Radio Netherlands Worldwide) – news from Europe in English and Dutch. Also audio and podcasts, too. www.dutchgrammar.com – good site for grammar reference www.dutchtoday.com – exercises and vocabulary www.lauraspeaksdutch.info – fun podcasts that are targeted for new dutch learners and that explain things about the Netherlands and Dutch culture I can’t do it until later today, but I’m happy to clean up some of the verbage in the profile. It’s generally very good but there are a few misspellings and just some phrases that a native speaker might do differently. Hobbema 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5334 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 18 of 45 06 October 2010 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks very much, Hobbema, that would be great.
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 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 45 06 October 2010 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Hartelijk bedankt, I have incorporated your links into the profile and I am looking forward to your English corrections.:) Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 06 October 2010 at 5:41pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hobbema Senior Member United States Joined 5740 days ago 541 posts - 575 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, French, Dutch | Message 20 of 45 07 October 2010 at 1:50am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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I don't know the best way to post this to make it easy for you to incorporate changes. And I don't know how to make editing marks here so I just corrected the text and pasted it below. You should know I made very few changes, just corrected a couple misspellings and changed some words for readability. So except for a couple of "telltales" the entire text flowed like natural educated English.
And thanks for putting me as an author but my contribution is very small. :) _____________________________________________________ THE COMPLETE DUTCH PROFILE written by Crush, Meadowmeal, ReneeMona, Hobbema and Fasulye INTRODUCTION Dutch is an interesting language of the Germanic language family. By population, it is spoken less frequently than other European languages and has the most similarities to Afrikaans, Frisian, German, and English. USEFULNESS I would recommend learning Dutch to all people who want to have a more than superficial contact with the Dutch speaking countries, which include: the Netherlands, Flanders in Belgium, Suriname in South America and the Dutch Antilles (Aruba and Curaçao). If you speak the language of these countries on a fluent level, you will be better accepted and will deepen your friendships with the local people, which is certainly nicer than making just a few short hotel contacts in English. In the Netherlands most people speak English, and in the regions near its eastern border with Germany, many people speak German to at least a certain level, though not always fluently. CHIC FACTOR People who want to learn Dutch should learn the language well. Students of the Dutch language who speak haltingly may find that natives might switch over to answering Dutch questions in English or even German. Native Dutch speakers will be truly impressed as they are not used to English or German visitors speaking their language, and you as a foreign language speaker of Dutch will get the chance to receive a lot of compliments if you speak the language fluently. People who categorically deny the chic factor of Dutch, are not well informed about Dutch language and culture, but rather rely on stereotypes. ECONOMIC IMPORTANCE Dutch is used as a business language in the border regions of Germany, like Nordrhein-Westfalen and Niedersachsen, in the areas of Northern France, in all of Belgium, and also in the French and German speaking parts of Belgium and most likely in Luxembourg as well. There are some business jobs that require fluent Dutch in speaking and writing, and if you are qualified to apply for those, you will have only a few competitors. Also, in the German tourism regions of the Black Forest and Sauerland which are almost overpopulated by Dutch tourists, you should speak Dutch fluently if you want to find a good job in the tourism industry. TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES Dutch is useful as a travel language in all countries where Dutch is spoken natively. Learners of Dutch should be prepared for native speakers of Dutch to address tourists in English, but the best way to overcome this is to explain why you have learned the language and to show some perserverance when speaking it. COUNTRIES Native language in: The Netherlands, Flanders as a part of Belgium, Suriname in South America and the Dutch Antilles (Aruba and Curaçao). SPEAKERS The number of Dutch native speakers is around 23 million; 16,5 in the Netherlands, 6,1 in Belgium and an additional hundreds of thousands in Suriname. Somewhere between 4 to 5 million people speak Dutch as a second language, bringing the total number of speakers to around 27 million. Dutch is an official language of the Netherlands, Belgium, Suriname, Aruba, the Netherlands Antilles, the Benelux, European Union and the Union of South American Nations. Significant numbers of speakers exist in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, France, Germany, the United Kingdom and the United States. VARIATIONS In the Netherlands there are Dutch dialects spoken in provinces such as Limburg, Brabant, Groningen and Drenthe. Frisian is regarded as a separate language, not as a Dutch dialect. Flemish is standard Dutch spoken in Belgium. But there are also Flemish dialects. The Netherlands and the north of Belgium have a remarkably diverse set of dialects and accents; almost every city and town has it's own dialect. People who are familiar with them can often pinpoint where a person is from quite precisely when hearing them speak. Some rural Dutch and Flemish dialects are so hard to understand that speakers are often subtitled when they appear on national TV. The dialects that deviate most from the standard language are spoken in Limburg, Brabant, Groningen and Drente. Flemish is the collective name for the dialects of Dutch spoken in Belgium. Frisian, spoken in the northern province of Friesland, is not a dialect but an independent language, but it is still very similar to Dutch and quite understandable with some practice and effort. Standard Dutch used to be called Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands ('General Civilized Dutch') but these days the Beschaafd part is often left out for the sake of political correctness or it is just called "Standaard Nederlands". It is based on the Hollandic dialect spoken in the Holland region, traditionally the most influential and densely populated region, and there's an urban legend claiming that the 'purest' Dutch is spoken in the city of Haarlem. CULTURE Each of the above mentioned countries, where Dutch is spoken natively, has its own typical culture. DIFFICULTIES The Dutch "R" is worth mentioning, since it is pronounced so differently in different dialects and it seems to be one of the hardest things for Dutch learners to master, together with the hard g and the diphthongs. Dutch syntax seems to be especially troublesome for English speakers since that language has a pretty straightforward word order, and even a good knowledge of German doesn't completely cut it in this regard. When I read Dutch written by people who claim basic or even advanced fluency, tiny variations in word order that make it sound unnatural are usually what gives them away as non-native speakers. A common pitfall for speakers of other Germanic languages, especially English, is that they take Germanic cognates to mean the same thing but there is often a subtle or even a big difference between the ways cognates are used in the different languages. GRAMMAR People who don't like learning cases and declensions can be relieved. The Dutch cases of the past centuries have been abolished, so learners of Dutch don't have to learn ANY cases! The verb system is very similar to the German one, so previous knowledge of German would be helpful to learn it. Dutch nouns have two genders: "de" = male and female and "het" = neuter. Examples are "de man", "de vrouw" and "het kind". PRONOUNCIATION It depends on the native language of the learner how difficult the pronounciation of Dutch is. Dutch has more the of a reputation of being difficult to pronounce than it really is. However, some typical Dutch diphtongs, such as "ui", "oe" "ei" and "ou" may be a bit tricky to pronounce for a beginner. VOCABULARY Dutch is a typical Germanic language. There are many English words used in Dutch especially in the fields of IT or technology. German words are often very similar to Dutch words, even if the writing looks different. For example "het boek" and "das Buch". Speakers of the Scandinavian languages Danish, Norwegian and Swedish will find some of their words used in Dutch as well. It might be useful to mention that Dutch has also borrowed extensively from French and Latin and like in English; there is often a Germanic and a more formal Romance word for the same thing, e.g. verdediging - defensie, stoep - trottoir etc. TRANSPARENCY When reading Dutch texts, the language is quite transparent to speakers of other Germanic languages. Understanding the spoken language will be more difficult. The closest language to Dutch is Afrikaans, so for speakers of this language, both written and spoken Dutch is very transparent. SPELLING The spelling of Dutch is regular and logical, unlike English. If you should learn the spelling rules well in the beginning, then spelling will not be a problem. What even native speakers of Dutch find confusing are the frequent spelling reforms of the Dutch language. However, these bring only minor spelling changes, so foreign learners of Dutch should not worry much about relatively trivial details. TIME NEEDED It depends on the your native language, possibly previous knowledge of foreign languages similar to Dutch, motivation, time schedule and other important factors. Native speakers of Afrikaans, Frisian, German and English have an advantage learning Dutch. BOOKS The most rewarded editor of Dutch monolingual and bilingual dictionaries in the Netherlands and Belgium is "Van Dale". Especially for making Dutch translations on a professional level you should use the "Van Dale" series. If you are satisfied with cheap pocket dictionaries of various languages, then go for the "Prisma" series. Literature for learners of Dutch: "De eilanden" by A.Alberts (1953), Marten Toonder's Het kukel (1963) and the fables-that-aren't-fables of Toon Tellegen. Gerard Reve, De avonden (1947) [only a good read if you "get" the humour] W.F. Hermans, Nooit meer slapen (1966) Herman Gorter, Mei (1889) [greatest Dutch poem ever] Louis Couperus, Van oude menschen, de dingen die voorbijgaan (1906) [language probably difficult] Hugo Claus, Het verdriet van België (1983) [essential if you're interested in Belgium] Nescio, De uitvreter / Titaantjes / Dichtertje (1918) [superb simple Dutch] Willem Elsschot, Lijmen (1924) / Het been (1938) / Kaas (1933) [ditto] F. Bordewijk, Karakter (1938) [Oscar-winning film] / Bint (1934) Frederik van Eeden, De kleine Johannes (1885-1906) Theo Thijssen, Kees de jongen (1923) Simon Vestdijk, Terug tot Ina Damman (1934) / De kellner en de levenden (1949) [compelling vision of the end of times] Harry Mulisch, De aanslag (1982) [Oscar-winning film] Martinus Nijhoff, Awater (1934) / Nieuwe gedichten (1934) / Het uur U (1936) [powerful poetry in "normal" Dutch] Jan Wolkers, Terug naar Oegstgeest (1965) [Recommended if you're "well-versed" in the Bible] Anne Frank, Het achterhuis (postuum, 1947) [even if you've already read a translation] Hella Haasse, Oeroeg (1948) Joost van den Vondel, 17. eeuw, Gijsbrecht van Aemstel SCHOOLS Dutch can be studied as a foreign language at universities all over the world. There are commercial language schools offering courses in Dutch. In Germany, for example, it is possible to choose Dutch as an official school language besides English, French and Latin in the border region of this country. LINKS www.rnw.nl – Radio Nederland Wereldomroep (Radio Netherlands Worldwide) – news from Europe in English and Dutch. Also audio and podcasts, too. www.dutchgrammar.com – good site for grammar reference www.dutchtoday.com – exercises and vocabulary www.lauraspeaksdutch.info – fun podcasts that are targeted for new dutch learners and that explain things about the Netherlands and Dutch culture Edits: A couple typos I missed (or added) Edited by Hobbema on 07 October 2010 at 1:53am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5334 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 21 of 45 07 October 2010 at 2:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thank you for your contribution, Hobbema!
I have some final nitpicking comments to add:
My spelling checker tells me this should be perseverance.
These two parts of the variation bit basically say the same thing so can we leave one of them out or mix them together somehow?
It's a common misspelling but I think it should be pronunciation.
It's diphthongs. Edited by ReneeMona on 07 October 2010 at 2:26am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hobbema Senior Member United States Joined 5740 days ago 541 posts - 575 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, French, Dutch | Message 22 of 45 07 October 2010 at 5:20am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I yield to the spell checker. I never use them; it is not because I don't trust them, it is because I have always believed that my reliance on them would make me soft in the head. It would appear that I'm soft in the head, because I missed this. Thanks for pointing it out, but I am embarrassed.
You are correct, I didn't catch this either. But I would suggest using the first one and not using the second. Either one is good, we don't need both. Good catch on your part.
Aargh! You are correct on both counts. And now I am reminded of a saying which I have not seen in print but that my mother used to say. It was in Dutch, something like "Ach Haden" or "Ach Heden"; I don't know how to spell it phonetically, but I think I would recognize it in print if I saw it. So she would say it if she was exasperated. And right now I am exasperated with my spelling. And this profile would have been useful to me a few years back on one of my trips to Belgium, but that is a story for another time. :) Edited by Hobbema on 07 October 2010 at 5:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6702 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 45 07 October 2010 at 9:25am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I find the second one more informative on all accounts. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5334 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 24 of 45 07 October 2010 at 10:41am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Haha, no need to be embarrassed. Both my Dutch and my English look like a mess without a spell checker so I agree that all those years of using them has made me soft in the head. I'm working on it though.
I think it's ach heden but I've only ever heard it said too so the spelling is new to me. It's not very common and a little old-fashioned. I think I've only heard my grandmother and people of her age say it. One of the texts I found on google with ach heden in it also used the word neen. ;-) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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