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Better Dutch profile | ||
Tags: Dutch | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Collaborative writing |  | |
| Vos Diglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5565 days ago 766 posts - 1020 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Dutch, Polish | Message 33 of 45 23 November 2010 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ik heb wat meer links voor jullie. Dutch Word of The Day - http://dwotd.web-log.nl/dutch_word_of_the_day/ Dutch TV Online - http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/ Dutch Grammar & Exercises. For the Intermediate learner (NL) - http://www.taalblad.be/ Ducth Audio Books - http://librivox.org/ Dutch Art & Music Magazine (has short videos) - http://www.cobra.be/cm/cobra Learn Dutch Online for Beginners - http://www.taalthuis.com/content/view/12/35/ Nice work with the profile everyone, it's looking good. Although I do agree with Reneemona, there could be some great stuff added about Dutch painters and scholars, scientists and writers etc., and historical things such as the tolerance of beliefs and cultures also. Thanks Meadowmeal for that killer book list as well. Edited by Vos on 23 November 2010 at 1:23pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5334 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 34 of 45 23 November 2010 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'd like to try and write something about Dutch culture but I'm currently very busy with school and I also think I'll need some help from other members to make sure Surinamese and Flemish culture are represented as well. I'm also a little unsure about writing the culture bit from a Dutch perspective. Wouldn't it be more interesting to a prospective Dutch learner to read an overview of Dutch culture from other Dutch learners instead of a native speaker trying to "sell" the language? Maybe Dutch learners can post what they like about Dutch culture and we can cut and paste that into a coherent text.
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7155 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 35 of 45 23 November 2010 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
I agree. I've moved away from putting in cultural descriptions that highlight a litany of cultural achievements that basically flatter the speech community's collective ego to ones that point out what learners can delve into in film, music or literature (i.e. aspects that can easily incorporate practicing the target language). I would put in the cultural description for the Dutch profile if I were able to. Unfortunately I have not studied Dutch nor have I gained any sense of what a learner of Dutch could readily enjoy in the associated cultural output. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 36 of 45 27 November 2010 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
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THE COMPLETE DUTCH PROFILE
written by Crush, Meadowmeal, ReneeMona, Hobbema, Vos and Fasulye INTRODUCTION Dutch is an interesting language of the Germanic language family. By population, it is spoken less frequently than other European languages and has the most similarities to Afrikaans, Frisian, German, and English. USEFULNESS I would recommend learning Dutch to all people who want to have a more than superficial contact with the Dutch speaking countries, which include: the Netherlands, Flanders in Belgium, Suriname in South America and Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten and the rest of the former Netherlands Antilles. If you speak the language of these countries on a fluent level, you will be better accepted and will deepen your friendships with the local people, which is certainly nicer than making just a few short hotel contacts in English. In the Netherlands most people speak English, and in the regions near its eastern border with Germany, many people speak German to at least a certain level, though not always fluently. CHIC FACTOR People who want to learn Dutch should learn the language well. Students of the Dutch language who speak haltingly may find that natives might switch over to answering Dutch questions in English or even German. Native Dutch speakers will be truly impressed as they are not used to English or German visitors speaking their language, and you as a foreign language speaker of Dutch will get the chance to receive a lot of compliments if you speak the language fluently. People who categorically deny the chic factor of Dutch, are not well informed about Dutch language and culture, but rather rely on stereotypes. ECONOMIC IMPORTANCE Dutch is used as a business language in the border regions of Germany, like Nordrhein-Westfalen and Niedersachsen, in the areas of Northern France, in all of Belgium, and also in the French and German speaking parts of Belgium and most likely in Luxembourg as well. It's of course not spoken in Germany, Wallonia or Luxemburg, but there may be jobs located where you have at least written or phone contact with Dutch-speaking countries. If you are qualified to apply for those jobs, you will have only few competitors. Also, in the German tourism regions of the Black Forest and Sauerland which are almost overpopulated by Dutch tourists, you should speak Dutch fluently, if you want to find a good job in the tourism industry. TRAVEL OPPORTUNITIES Dutch is useful as a travel language in all countries where Dutch is spoken natively. Learners of Dutch should be prepared for native speakers of Dutch to address tourists in English, but the best way to overcome this is to explain why you have learned the language and to show some perseverance when speaking it. COUNTRIES Native language in: The Netherlands, Flanders as a part of Belgium, Suriname in South America and Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten and the rest of the former Netherlands Antilles. SPEAKERS The number of Dutch native speakers is around 23 million; 16,5 in the Netherlands, 6,1 in Belgium and an additional hundreds of thousands in Suriname. Somewhere between 4 to 5 million people speak Dutch as a second language, bringing the total number of speakers to around 27 million. Dutch is an official language of Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, Suriname, the Benelux, the European Union and the Union of South American Nations. Significant numbers of speakers exist in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, France, Germany, the United Kingdom and the United States. VARIATIONS In the Netherlands there are Dutch dialects spoken in provinces such as Limburg, Brabant, Groningen and Drenthe. Frisian is regarded as a separate language, not as a Dutch dialect. Flemish is standard Dutch spoken in Belgium. But there are also Flemish dialects. The Netherlands and the north of Belgium have a remarkably diverse set of dialects and accents; almost every city and town has it's own dialect. People who are familiar with them can often pinpoint where a person is from quite precisely when hearing them speak. Some rural Dutch and Flemish dialects are so hard to understand that speakers are often subtitled when they appear on national TV. The dialects that deviate most from the standard language are spoken in Limburg, Brabant, Groningen and Drente. Flemish is the collective name for the dialects of Dutch spoken in Belgium. Frisian, spoken in the northern province of Friesland, is not a dialect but an independent language, but it is still very similar to Dutch and quite understandable with some practice and effort. Standard Dutch used to be called Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands ('General Civilized Dutch') but these days the Beschaafd part is often left out for the sake of political correctness or it is just called "Standaard Nederlands". It is based on the Hollandic dialect spoken in the Holland region, traditionally the most influential and densely populated region, and there's an urban legend claiming that the 'purest' Dutch is spoken in the city of Haarlem. CULTURE Each of the above mentioned countries, where Dutch is spoken natively, has its own typical culture. DIFFICULTIES The Dutch "R" is worth mentioning, since it is pronounced so differently in different dialects and it seems to be one of the hardest things for Dutch learners to master, together with the hard g and the diphthongs. Dutch syntax seems to be especially troublesome for English speakers since that language has a pretty straightforward word order, and even a good knowledge of German doesn't completely cut it in this regard. When I read Dutch written by people who claim basic or even advanced fluency, tiny variations in word order that make it sound unnatural are usually what gives them away as non-native speakers. A common pitfall for speakers of other Germanic languages, especially English, is that they take Germanic cognates to mean the same thing but there is often a subtle or even a big difference between the ways cognates are used in the different languages. GRAMMAR People who don't like learning cases and declensions can be relieved. The Dutch cases of the past centuries have been abolished, so learners of Dutch don't have to learn ANY cases! The verb system is very similar to the German one, so previous knowledge of German would be helpful to learn it. Dutch nouns have two genders: "de" = male and female and "het" = neuter. Examples are "de man", "de vrouw" and "het kind". PRONUNCIATION It depends on the native language of the learner how difficult the pronunciation of Dutch is. Dutch has more the of a reputation of being difficult to pronounce than it really is. However, some typical Dutch diphtongs, such as "ui", "oe" "ei" and "ou" may be a bit tricky to pronounce for a beginner. VOCABULARY Dutch is a typical Germanic language. There are many English words used in Dutch especially in the fields of IT or technology. German words are often very similar to Dutch words, even if the writing looks different. For example "het boek" and "das Buch". Speakers of the Scandinavian languages Danish, Norwegian and Swedish will find some of their words used in Dutch as well. It might be useful to mention that Dutch has also borrowed extensively from French and Latin and like in English; there is often a Germanic and a more formal Romance word for the same thing, e.g. verdediging - defensie, stoep - trottoir etc. TRANSPARENCY When reading Dutch texts, the language is quite transparent to speakers of other Germanic languages. Understanding the spoken language will be more difficult. The closest language to Dutch is Afrikaans, so for speakers of this language, both written and spoken Dutch is very transparent. SPELLING The spelling of Dutch is regular and logical, unlike English. If you should learn the spelling rules well in the beginning, then spelling will not be a problem. What even native speakers of Dutch find confusing are the frequent spelling reforms of the Dutch language. However, these bring only minor spelling changes, so foreign learners of Dutch should not worry much about relatively trivial details. TIME NEEDED It depends on the your native language, possibly previous knowledge of foreign languages similar to Dutch, motivation, time schedule and other important factors. Native speakers of Afrikaans, Frisian, German and English have an advantage learning Dutch. BOOKS The most rewarded editor of Dutch monolingual and bilingual dictionaries in the Netherlands and Belgium is "Van Dale". Especially for making Dutch translations on a professional level you should use the "Van Dale" series. If you are satisfied with cheap pocket dictionaries of various languages, then go for the "Prisma" series. Literature for learners of Dutch: "De eilanden" by A.Alberts (1953), Marten Toonder's Het kukel (1963) and the fables-that-aren't-fables of Toon Tellegen. Gerard Reve, De avonden (1947) [only a good read if you "get" the humour] W.F. Hermans, Nooit meer slapen (1966) Herman Gorter, Mei (1889) [greatest Dutch poem ever] Louis Couperus, Van oude menschen, de dingen die voorbijgaan (1906) [language probably difficult] Hugo Claus, Het verdriet van België (1983) [essential if you're interested in Belgium] Nescio, De uitvreter / Titaantjes / Dichtertje (1918) [superb simple Dutch] Willem Elsschot, Lijmen (1924) / Het been (1938) / Kaas (1933) [ditto] F. Bordewijk, Karakter (1938) [Oscar-winning film] / Bint (1934) Frederik van Eeden, De kleine Johannes (1885-1906) Theo Thijssen, Kees de jongen (1923) Simon Vestdijk, Terug tot Ina Damman (1934) / De kellner en de levenden (1949) [compelling vision of the end of times] Harry Mulisch, De aanslag (1982) [Oscar-winning film] Martinus Nijhoff, Awater (1934) / Nieuwe gedichten (1934) / Het uur U (1936) [powerful poetry in "normal" Dutch] Jan Wolkers, Terug naar Oegstgeest (1965) [Recommended if you're "well-versed" in the Bible] Anne Frank, Het achterhuis (postuum, 1947) [even if you've already read a translation] Hella Haasse, Oeroeg (1948) Joost van den Vondel, 17. eeuw, Gijsbrecht van Aemstel SCHOOLS Dutch can be studied as a foreign language at universities all over the world. There are commercial language schools offering courses in Dutch. In Germany, for example, it is possible to choose Dutch as an official school language besides English, French and Latin in the border region of this country. LINKS Dutch Word of The Day - http://dwotd.web-log.nl/dutch_word_of_the_day/ Dutch TV Online - http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/ Dutch Grammar & Exercises. For the Intermediate learner (NL) - http://www.taalblad.be/ Ducth Audio Books - http://librivox.org/ Dutch Art & Music Magazine (has short videos) - http://www.cobra.be/cm/cobra Learn Dutch Online for Beginners - http://www.taalthuis.com/content/view/12/35/ www.rnw.nl – Radio Nederland Wereldomroep (Radio Netherlands Worldwide) – news from Europe in English and Dutch. Also audio and podcasts, too. www.dutchgrammar.com – good site for grammar reference www.dutchtoday.com – exercises and vocabulary www.lauraspeaksdutch.info – fun podcasts that are targeted for new dutch learners and that explain things about the Netherlands and Dutch culture Fasulye PS: Thanks a lot to Vos for his useful links voor beginners and intermediate learners of Dutch! Edited by Fasulye on 27 November 2010 at 9:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 37 of 45 28 November 2010 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
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OUR DUTCH PROFILE
Maybe it's important to mention, that this Dutch profile in my last post is a teamwork-profile of 6 people. It contains the ideas of different people who have different opinions. I feel responsible for my own ideas in this profile but of course I can just add the ideas of other people to complete the profile without saying that I always have the same opinons. I received a message from a reader of this profile debating the usage of the term "ABN" with me, I myself don't speak about "ABN" but only use "Standaard Nederlands" as an equivalent for "Hochdeutsch" and "rigsdansk". Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 29 November 2010 at 7:06am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5334 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 38 of 45 06 January 2011 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
What exactly is their problem with the term? Our profile explains that these days it's also called Standaardnederlands (the official name) and AN but I can attest that the term ABN is still very common. Edited by ReneeMona on 06 January 2011 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 39 of 45 07 January 2011 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
The argument is that "Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands" would assume that Flemisch and Dutch and Flemish dialects weren't "beschaafd", so therefore it is not a neutral term. Whereas "Standaard Nederlands" is really neutral. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 07 January 2011 at 12:10pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5334 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 40 of 45 07 January 2011 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Standard Dutch used to be called Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands ('General Civilized
Dutch') but these days the Beschaafd part is often left out for the sake of political correctness or it is just called "Standaard Nederlands". I understand the person's complaint but reading our profile, I don't see how we are insinuating anything bad about Flemish and other variations of Dutch. It only says that Standaardnederlands (it's usually spelled as one word) used to be called ABN and is still called that very often, though AN is also used sometimes. This is a simple statement of fact and I don't see anything wrong with the way we phrased it here. Edited by ReneeMona on 28 January 2012 at 7:05pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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