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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5852 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 105 of 182 17 November 2009 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think you can sort of measure progress, perhaps imperfectly, by watching how things that were initially challenging become gradually less difficult to understand, until you eventually understand them effortlessly. When I started learning Italian I found an interview on Youtube that I really wanted to understand but couldn't, then watched it every once in a while to see how much more of it I could grasp each time. It's quite motivational to see your natural understanding increase that way. It might not be quantifiable, but that's ok, it doesn't have to be, but you can still have something that shows you your own progress in terms you can relate to. A lot of the time we can make huge progress and not even realize it, until at some point you stop and think, "hang on, there's no way I would've been able to understand this x months ago", then that's how you know. It can help to have something concrete that you can keep measuring though, as a goal of sorts.
On the exposure vs grammar issue: I think there's a big difference between learning your first-ish foreign language mostly by exposure vs studying a new language that way after significant study of grammatical concepts in other languages previously. The more languages you've wrestled with, the less you need things spelled out to you in a new and unfamiliar language, so concepts can take form in the correct way from exposure with very little need for explicit grammatical study. Everyone has their preferences of course, but lack of grammar study is a long way away from lack of grammar learning - I guess everyone finds what suits their learning style. Liz 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6726 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 106 of 182 17 November 2009 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, you're right of course that you can measure your own progress in that way. But it remains a pretty narrow view, because what you really want to measure it against is "my level in this language once I'm satisfied that I've learned enough". Which is.. well hard to measure. Needless to say, it's wonderful to have these leaps in comprehension from one time to the next, makes you appreciate how the time you spent made a difference.
Well, you present a hypothesis that is not actionable at the moment. If I move onto French I will have the chance to test it, given my thorough grammar study in Italian. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5852 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 107 of 182 17 November 2009 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | ||
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Actually, it seems to work even for languages that are unrelated (e.g. Spanish and Hungarian), maybe even more so than for related languages, so you might see some magic when you move on to Dutch :-) Your ability to grasp new grammar does develop and improve the more languages you have a go at, trust me. I'm sure you'll find Dutch significantly easier to pick up after studying Italian.
Have you thought about studying the two simultaneously? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6726 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 108 of 182 17 November 2009 at 11:40pm | IP Logged | ||
In a manner of speaking. After I'm "done" with Italian, that is to say done with the main thrust, I obviously both want to use it and don't want it to atrophy. So it might be sufficient to just use it and do some reading. I don't plan to turn it off completely until I feel more or less fluent, which is not going to be in 3 months I think. But I want to be satisfied that I can do with one hour of Italian a day or even less, so that I can focus on Dutch properly. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6726 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 109 of 182 20 November 2009 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Score! I'm back in Norway at the moment and I found a comic book I once bought in Italy. "Topolino e la guerra dei mondi". Unfortunately it's not Donald Duck which is funny, rather these dull detective stories with Mickey Mouse. But it will do. Right off the bat I noticed that the language is very useful for someone who needs to learn the spoken language, certain expressions and whatnot. And relatively complicated despite it being for kids, it's not particularly simple. Obviously the words are common and easy words, but the grammar is pretty much the same as anywhere else.
I think I might read it more than once. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6726 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 110 of 182 22 November 2009 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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The magic moment has come, folks. We have entered chapter 18: congiuntivo! Now now, cool your engines a little, one question at a time. Was it everything you thought it'd be? How do you feel? Have you told your parents yet?
I should say most of the time the explanations in the textbook are quite good, but when they start writing 2 and 3 successive pages of explanations alone, it's a little much to take on. I need smaller chunks for practice. But here's the deal: the subjunctive forms are really simple. The rules are easy, the irregulars are easy to remember and the whole thing is a lot easier to handle than passato remoto, for example. Now, the rules for when to apply it? Long long long. When expressing uncertainty, hope, expectation, elation etc etc. It almost seems like it could be used at any time if you really wanted to. Well, I'll have to put the secretary to work on this one. To give you an example that seems rather odd to an English speaker: 1. Devo comprare una macchina che consuma meno. 2. Devo comprare una macchina che consumi meno. Looks like a typo, right? No, that's the congiuntivo form, in fact. And what it means is this: sentence #1 is spoken from the standpoint of certainty. It means "I have to buy one of those cars which consume less gas." Sentence #2, however, means you need to do it as a way of saying "something has to be done". It means "I have to buy a car which consumes less, dammit! (although I don't know if such a thing exists)" Weird, huh? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6726 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 111 of 182 24 November 2009 at 6:00am | IP Logged | ||
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Well, this feels like a half assed job. I just finished the chapter and I can't say I really understand congiuntivo. It'd be one thing if it were only sentences like "Spero che..." but it's used in a dozenage of cases, many of which I don't get the point of. I think it's fair to say this is the weakest result I've had yet with a chapter. :(
I've also had a small backlash given how I got into the habit of slacking off with the dialogs that open each chapter. They used to be easy and I didn't have to do much, but now I'm letting a bunch of new vocabulary slip by that later ends up being used in the chapter, no good. I guess I'll have to sweep it into Anki as I go along from now on. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6726 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 112 of 182 24 November 2009 at 6:26am | IP Logged | ||
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Found some! Thanks to good old internets.
A. The CONGIUNTIVO is used in the secondary clause when the main clause expresses: --emotion and fear ("ho paura/mi dispiace che i miei studenti non abbiano fatto i compiti") --opinion and doubt ("noi professori crediamo/dubitiamo che gli studenti bevano troppo alcol") --volition and desire ("gli studenti non vogliono/desiderano che io gli dia troppi compiti") --necessity and importance ("é necessario/importante che voi professori capiate meglio i giovani") --appearances and hope ("sembra/spero che questa volta tutti siano presenti in classe") --(im)possibility and (im)probability ("é improbabile che i giovani capiscano i vecchi") linky This is by no means exhaustive or even thorough, but it's the best bird's eye view (which is what I needed most) I've seen yet. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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