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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| doviende Diglot Senior Member Canada languagefixatio Joined 5978 days ago 533 posts - 1245 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Hindi, Swedish, Portuguese | Message 25 of 182 03 October 2009 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I'd like to encourage you to try out some deadtree books, like you mentioned. I found it tremendously helpful to "read" a book in German even when i barely understood any of it. I just kept looking at all the words, and picking out whatever i could. It gets easier as you go along. The best (for me) is reading while listening to it as an audiobook at the same time (also known as "L-R" here on the forums). I did this with Harry Potter and went from basically zero reading ability to confidently picking up any German book and knowing i'll at least get all the plot. I made some major progress in only 2 months. I still don't know every word in the books, but reading is enjoyable and i get all of the plot even if i miss some of the details.
Most of my current studying is basically L-R, plus i highlight some of the sentences that are interesting and come back to them later. When i'm reviewing the highlighted sentences, i try to understand everything about them, and i add the whole sentence to a card in Anki. I also watch lots of TV, and i sometimes add some of the TV sentences to Anki too. Other than that, i barely glance at any grammar stuff, although i sometimes use a thematic vocabulary book that has more example sentences i can put into Anki. Good luck! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Levi Pentaglot Senior Member United States Joined 5559 days ago 2268 posts - 3328 votes Speaks: English*, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish Studies: Russian, Dutch, Portuguese, Mandarin, Japanese, Italian | Message 26 of 182 04 October 2009 at 6:07am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I don't think I could give a definite amount of time that I've been working on it. I took almost two years of Mandarin in college, but dropped out of it during the second year and didn't really do anything with the language for a couple years after that. Then a few months ago, I really started getting back into Mandarin and studying it intensively. I would now say that I'm past the beginner stage and at an intermediate level, but I have a long way to go before I reach anything I would call fluency. I am right now just taking things step by step, enjoying my steady progress in the language and savoring the small victories that come along the way. For instance, I was able to pick out some of what was being said by the Chinese people behind me in line at the supermarket today, and that was a very satisfying feeling. And I did an excellent job of understanding many the French conversations I overheard at work today, something that seemed impossible not too long ago. I think it is important not to worry too much about how much time you've put into the language or what your fluency level is, but rather concentrate on enjoying the act of making progress, and going to bed knowing more about the language than when you got up. Edited by Levi on 04 October 2009 at 6:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 27 of 182 04 October 2009 at 9:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I have some books now, as a matter of fact, I'm just not sure when I will start reading. I also read your post in that other thread where you described reading in German without understand much at first, it was very encouraging. :) I would like try L-R, but I guess that hinges on getting the same edition of the audiobook and the deadtree, but I haven't really found a lot of audiobooks in Italian so far. And most of the ones I've seen are in the "great literature" category, which I either don't crave all that much or I would rather read in a language I know well so that I can meet the demands of the text. I'm also using Anki daily basically, although I don't mention it all the time. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 28 of 182 04 October 2009 at 9:57am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Those moments are very satisfying indeed. How are you doing on reading? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 29 of 182 04 October 2009 at 11:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Review: Pimsleur Italian
So I've finally finished this course. It's taken me just over a month, using it almost everyday. I do this mostly during dead time, like falling asleep in bed, cleaning, cooking, in transit. But I would also take walks sometimes specifically to get some Pimsleur done. The repetition method that they employ works very well. The material is repeated a whole lot, and it does make me remember it. And yet it's not so monotonous that I would start getting really sick of it. This might be because they tend to change scenes quite frequently. I tried an audio course once in the past that was entirely plot based. A woman arrived in Italy, went to a hotel, needed a room etc. In that kind of program you get no break from the plot; it's almost like reading a book that's not very good. Whereas with Pimsleur they will often do "and now you are with an Italian colleague in some-other-context". It's a big win to not be stuck on the same thing all the time, and it makes it less predictable. The content is also more centered on expression than learning particular words for room, chair, table etc. This makes you more successful and motivated in the course, because formulating phrases and sentences has more to do with language comprehension than recalling particular words, which just isn't easy. So rather than feeling like you're failing to remember and having to repeat lessons, you can just go along and make progress. This is a very good thing. To this end I would also recommend stopping the tape whenever you don't have enough time to answer a question and just taking the time to think it out. I learned this from the Michel Thomas course, and it really is a much better method than missing answers and having to repeat lessons. Personally I didn't feel the need to repeat a single one. The course is very literal. I think that the earlier you are in the process of learning a language the more important it is to eliminate ambiguity, because it results in tons of frustration and undermines your confidence in the fact that you actually know something, not just maybe-know-something. In Pimsleur they really pay attention to this, and they generally only have one word for any term. And when he says "Well, we have to go now" you will actually hear "Bene, dobbiamo andare adesso". That's maybe a little over-literal even ("well" -> "bene"), but it means you can practice translation instead of sheer recall, which is a lot more effective. Unfortunately, this literalness starts to break down in Unit 3 where the sentences becomes more idiomatic. At this point it's a bit annoying that they would rather stay true to the "authentic English way of expression" rather than making the Italian easier to remember, as in "they told me that you would be leaving" -> "mi hanno detto che lei sarebbe partita". "partita" and "leaving" obviously aren't good equivalents, even if that is how you would express it in either language, but they declined the option to go with "would have left", which would be literal. Then there is the grammar aspect.. well, this is a sensitive point to be sure. Many learners would flee the room before you could say "gra-mm..". Pimsleur does a decent job of explaining the grammar as much as possible without explicitly mentioning it. So you will hear "the word for 'the key' was 'la chiave'. And now the word for 'the keys' is 'le chiavi'..". This obviously does work to an extent, and I certainly enjoy inferring grammar when I can. But personally I would not want to learn the entire grammar of a language this way, it would be too slow and too error prone. And Italian has some gotchas, like adjectives which only change in the plural (difficile -> difficili) versus those that change also in the gender (cara, caro -> care, cari). Assimil and other programs explain this, and I would really like to get that explanation, otherwise it would prey on my mind for too long. In fact, the lack of explicit grammar instruction really undercuts the value of this program in my opinion. I had some grammar foundations from Michel Thomas and a textbook, which made Pimsleur a nice way to practice grammar. But if this program were the only one I was following, I think it would drive me mad that they never tell me what the words are, because they do go into 4-5 different verb tenses and do quite a bit of pronouns and so on. This stuff is not trivial to grasp when done explicitly, so it's all the more hazy when you're just sitting there guessing. And all the more because a lot of things said in terms of the future tense or the past tense in English is just present tense in Italian ("I've been waiting here for two hours" -> "Aspetto qui da due ore"). This I really would like to not only just infer but also get a confirmation on. Edited by numerodix on 04 October 2009 at 11:44am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6101 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 30 of 182 04 October 2009 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Ninety lessons in a month is not a bad achievement! EDIT: The following is based on one 90 lesson course in one language, one 30 lesson course in another language and a few lessons in a third language - none of which Italian.
I don't agree with this. Saying "now imagine you are a businessman..." but then having the same words and sentences doesn't really "change scene". I haven't counted, but real changes in topic occur maybe a dozen times. And the problem is that it's always more or less the same with every language, and the same English speaker. Once me and my friend spent an evening... listening to the first lessons in a handful of different languages (they are free on the Pimsleur website). Don't try this at home!
I agree that it is good. You get a sense of accomplishment and of control of the language. On the other hand you have all your vocabulary to build after you complete Pimsleur. I wouldn't pause a Pimsleur lesson, but that's just different tastes.
This might differ in different languages. And again different tastes: I prefer idiomatic expressions in both languages. You *do* get an intuitive sense of it anyway, without needing to be literal.
I agree with your notes on grammar - but I'm not sure it makes a decent job (this is not a rhetoric question, but a sincere one. I have never done a Pimsleur course without also "knowing"/reading/studying some grammar. I'm not sure I'd understand all if I had no previous knowledge of grammar in the target language). I don't know in Italian, but in Slavic languages masculine and feminine are the only explicitly introduced grammar terms. Many times you could sense how embarassingly difficult it was for them to try to explain some grammar concepts, that would be so easy to do allowing just some grammar. I might have already said this, but for me Pimsleur is an excellent introduction (*) to a language, provided you... well... can afford it, and have plenty of time in your hands that you don't want to devote to more formal learning, or Listening-Reading, etc. It is very effortless to do it (no need to actively trying to learn a word, no need to make a study schedule, no need for books, and no need for 100 % focusing. MT for example requires a stronger focus). It gives you pronunciation and a sense for the language and its structure that is not so easy to get from traditional textbooks. And my newest pet idea is that by learning with audio only in the first stages you get the language deeper inside you. On the other hand it is just an introduction. After Pimsleur you need to start studying "for real". (*) While it is an introduction, I wouldn't do Pimsleur first thing and only thing. Skimming through a textbook, having an idea of basic grammar and pronunciation/spelling and knowing some basic stuff (greetings et co.) makes Pimsleur much easier and effortless. Edited by Leopejo on 04 October 2009 at 12:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 31 of 182 04 October 2009 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Well it didn't really bother me, so in that sense it was sufficient. But if as you say the content is exactly the same in every language then I don't think I will enjoy doing another Pimsleur.
Well, pausing as opposed to missing your window and feeling like you couldn't get it right. I definitely prefer the former. As for vocabulary, well that's always the case. Even if they did more of it, there's always so much more of it to do. I've tried a couple of programs (Livemocha.com is one) where they teach you almost only vocabulary and I don't get much satisfaction out of it. I prefer to pick it up as I go along.
Yes, but then I won't remember the exact expression, which is the goal here. I don't care if I say something in English that doesn't sound precisely right, it's the Italian that is important, isn't it?
I imagine you stress this to emphasize that the claims Pimsleur makes about how advanced you will be don't hold water. More often than not that is the case with any language teaching program, at least these commercialized ones. But I think that's just a sales tactic. If you told someone that doing 45 hours of audio would only give them an "introduction" it would be a more difficult sale. Edited by numerodix on 04 October 2009 at 1:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6101 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 32 of 182 04 October 2009 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Well, the first lesson is identical. And the order topics are introduced, the few jokes (would you have dinner with me at 1? No. At 2? No. At 3? No.... Ah, now I understand, you don't want to have dinner with me... you want to have a drink with me!) the patterns, these are all the same (based on two and a half courses on European languages).
That's where the 80 % rule comes into the fray. The whole idea is that you don't have to understand everything and be all the time 100 % right. But I guess me not pausing was more about my laziness - and my wanting to get that half an hour out of the way in no more than half an hour.
What I'm saying here is that with less than 45 hours of study, using a normal textbook (Assimil, TY, or any other), you will probably get much more vocabulary. But if vocabulary is not a priority from the start, then Pimsleur is good for you (as was my case).
It's the precise meaning that is important, not how those words literally translate to English. I think this is just a question of different philosophies. I tend not to reason word-by-word.
Regardless of the sale tactics, I find even "knowledgeable" people here tend to overestimate what Pimsleur does to you. They can't believe that the whole 3 course package delivers substantially less than one single Beginners' book with a couple of hours of audio. And when they find this, they usually start trashing Pimsleur. Better to make it clear from the start: Pimsleur is an (excellent if not time effective) introduction, you will need other material afterwards. If you are to use only one course to reach intermediate stage, choose an Assimil type one instead, which delivers more. You will need to learn in a written context sooner or later anyway. But if you don't mind starting with a 45 hours audio course, without expecting to be get past the beginner stage - then Pimsleur is for you (as it was for me). Edited by Leopejo on 04 October 2009 at 2:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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