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| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes  Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 41 of 182 10 October 2009 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Yeah, -ci is really troubling me. Thanks for your explanation.
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| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 42 of 182 10 October 2009 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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> Se siete rimasti senza pane, ve ne diamo un po' noi.
More confusion about tenses. Clearly this is the present he's talking about "if you are, of this moment, without bread". But then passato prossimo is supposed to be the past, right? :/ Why couldn't he just say "siete senza pane"? Is it somehow important to emphasize the [supposed] event which caused the current absence of bread? Would it be out of the question to say "rimanete senza pane"? Edited by numerodix on 10 October 2009 at 9:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6101 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 43 of 182 10 October 2009 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The problem is the verb rimanere, which doesn't have an exact correspondence in English, at least after checking the translations on Wordreference. In this case it's not in the meaning of "to stay". Clumsily, rimanere senza = "to get to be without". So as a tense rimanere refers to the moment that it happens, that this situation "got to be". You can ask "are you without wallet?" (present) but also "did you lose your wallet?" (past). siete senza pane? is a neuter "are you without bread?". But if bread is something you are supposed to have, and suddenly you don't, you use rimanere. A good analogy would be a car with an empty tank: "siete rimasti senza benzina?" = (clumsily) "did you get to be without fuel?". I guess these explanations don't really explain, but your questions are of quite an advanced nature! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 44 of 182 10 October 2009 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I follow you, Leopejo, it's just quite idiosyncratic that's all. But then language is not as logical as one would like. :)
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| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 45 of 182 11 October 2009 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Yesterday I got started late and by the time I had done my daily grammar routine from the textbook it was 11pm and I didn't feel up to doing any reading. So I decided to do another 2 pages of writing. Well, I think it was a mistake. Not only did I torture my hand with 8 pages of handwriting, I think I overdosed a little mentally too.
This morning when I got started I felt a little demotivated by how much work I still have to do on this language. But thankfully the daily routine has an odd sort of effect on me. No matter what kind of mood I'm in when I start, by the time I've done half an hour of it I feel like I'm back in the saddle again. It just works. Over these last two days I've covered two very important points. Compound pronouns, that's the first. The wacky me lo, ve li, gliela, gliele, gliene business. They're not really difficult as long as you are very clear about what the subject and object of the sentence are. Sometimes it takes me a minute or two to see a new sentence with words missing and figure out the intention behind it. And the second is the imperative form (at last). If you're learning Italian you should be very happy that the entire conjugation hierarchy isn't like the imperative form. It looks like they outsourced chunks of it to different contractors who had no way of speaking to each other. So for the positive imperative they decided prendi/aspetta while for the negative it became non prendere/aspettare. But that's only the tu form, the others are different. Ridiculous. On top of that there's a number of completely irregular verbs like fare which have this amusing function of doubling the first consonant in the pronoun to follow: fammi "do to me/for me". Plainly, this will take a little practice. Progress wise, I've reached page 200 in the textbook, of about 500 in all. In just under 60 hours. So at this pace I will spend another 100 hours on it. Yesterday I went by the local bookstore again and they've shipped a grammar exercise booklet, also from Guerra Edizioni. I think I might get it to do after I'm done with this textbook. Both to test myself and to get a little more practice at the grammar. The bookstore also had another kind of textbook from a different publisher (don't remember the name) which was aimed at intermediate students. So it might be just the thing for me after what I'm doing now. The style is more text based, with reading exercises and language usage points. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 46 of 182 11 October 2009 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Here comes another postmortem on a chapter from the book.
New things picked up: Si sarebbe messo a ridere -> He would take himself to laugh. I imagine this applies universally, so you can use "mettere a + verb". Due investigatori privati del Plaza stavano cercando di togliere le mani di Trevayne dal collo del supplicante cameriere. -> cercare di .. To be attempting something. Used widely, for instance you could say "cerco di essere più chiaro" -> I'm trying to say this more clearly [to be more clear] Spinse con tutta la forza del proprio corpo la porta del corridoio e si trovò sul sottile tappeto che aveva visto tempi migliori. -> "has seen better days" Ho il diritto di saperlo. -> "I have a right to know" L'ho saputo adesso. -> As with conoscere, to "have known" something means to have found out/learned of something. So he says "I've just found out now". Non aveva intenzione di cambiare idea -> cambiare idea, to change one's mind Sua moglie non era ancora del tutto in sé. -> non essere del tutto in sè, to not be quite yourself Andrew si sentì toccato profondamente -> Andrew felt himself deeply moved, very English sounding expression again Si era messo in contatto con il detective dell'albergo. -> mettersi in contatto, to put onself in touch with someone Annoyances: Forse era questa la spiegazione. When I first saw this form I didn't think too much of it, I thought perhaps it's a somewhat contrived form. But now I realize it's not. This sentence was not put in a context that would require any kind of emphasis or focus, it was run of the mill. I really don't like this form. I don't like how the subject you're talking about gets pushed to the end so you don't even know what you're talking about until you see it. And meanwhile you use "questo" as if a pronoun (because it must correspond in gender and plurality), even though the subject then follows. Difficulties: Se è potuto accadere a te, e secondo il nostro parere tu sei uno dei migliori, pensa a ciò che può succedere ad altri. Dobbiamo forse fermarci? E' questo che dovremmo fare? Again the troublesome -ci. He's saying "we have to stop it", I believe, because he's talking about things that are being done by other people. But why is "it" ci instead of lo? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6101 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 47 of 182 11 October 2009 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I never thought the imperative to be difficult.
mettersi a (reflexive)
Can't you say "he felt himself deeply touched"? This is not the same as being emotionally moved.
You want to emphasize questa, and this sentence sounds very natural.
Again, reflexive fermarsi. English is a bit ambiguous, as "to stop" can mean either "to stop (something)" or "to stop (oneself) doing something". The first is fermare and needs an object "dobbiamo fermare il treno". The second is reflexive fermarsi, which is your case: "do we have to stop (ourselves) (doing or planning something)". 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 48 of 182 11 October 2009 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
So what's the difference then? And if you're hinting at a literal meaning for "deeply touched", what does that mean? How do you touch someone "deeply" in a physical way? (Well I suppose maybe sexually but this was not that kind of context.) To "be moved" or for something to "be moving" means precisely emotionally moving.
I knew you would say this. :) What I tried to say is that I really don't think he's saying "stop ourselves" but rather "stop it" or "stop them". Because it doesn't fit the context otherwise. Unless I'm very much mistaken. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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