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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes  Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 57 of 182 13 October 2009 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
I only started with English at age 10 though. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6101 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 58 of 182 13 October 2009 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
You cheater. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 59 of 182 13 October 2009 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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By hook or by crook.
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| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 60 of 182 13 October 2009 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Milestone: 200 hours
I've decided to do a milestone post. It's a milestone in terms of hours spent, not goals achieved, so it's not a real milestone. But I've read somewhere that after 200 hours you're supposed to... I don't remember what. But something! And I know there are other people logging with the goal of clocking 200 hours around here, so it seems like a good time to look back on what has happened. More than that, however, I figure that if my logging is ever going to be useful to anyone else, then it's probably going to be this one. This is my first try at learning a language on my own, using the materials and the advice discussed on this site. The vast majority of people are not serial language learners, and the thought of dipping their toes into a foreign language makes them anxious. I myself would be more interested in someone's first try than someone's 14th language. So if you are reading this, you, hopefully it will do something for you. But take notice that I was not a complete stranger to Italian when I started, see the first post in this thread. So what can you do after 200 hours? It would be nice to quantify precisely, but short of that I've tried to test myself a bit to find out. Take these numbers with a spoonful of salt. Short online language test Score: 23/30 -> Upper intermediate level (level B1) The test: link Score explanation: link I also wanted to test my reading. It's somewhat silly to quantify reading performance, but I just counted words I missed. Each time I didn't know a word and could not understand it fully from context, I put it on a list. Then counted up the number of missed vs unique words in the text. The list of words counted also includes names (which obviously I didn't count as missed). Reading: familiar topic This is an article of the kind that I would be reading over the past years if I had known Italian. The topic and the vocabulary is from the part of Italian most familiar to me. Article: link Missed words: 23/379 Big picture understanding: Fairly complete Nuance understanding: Lacking Reading: unfamiliar topic I wanted to find something longer, perhaps political in topic. Article: link Missed words: 40/446 Big picture understanding: Shaky. Through most of the article I could follow it quite well, but I zoned out once or twice. As I've mentioned before, I keep track of the hours I spend. I do this in a spreadsheet by counting up hours in different activities. I've made an illustration to show the major activities that I've pursued so far. As I'm sure every language learner does, I've experimented a bit and found some pursuits to be fruitful and others less so. Here I show the ones that have given me the most, and thus I've spent most time on. There are about 13 different things in all, but the rest are really just background noise. 
I make a distinction in my spreadsheet between materials that are specifically designed for instruction (didactic) and just having contact with the live language (passive). Technically there should also be an "active" category to capture writing and speaking (of which there has been almost none yet), but ultimately I don't think I will be recording those things because they are rather hard to quantify unless I put myself on some kind of "one hour a day of writing" regimen, which I don't plan on. And finally a note about the materials. I've done reviews of Michel Thomas and Pimsleur, see the index in the first post. As for the textbook (also mentioned in the first post), I go through it sequentially, writing out all the notes and all the exercises in full by hand. I'm effectively copying the book, except I skip the dialogs and some other minor things. This might be a little over the top, but I do believe there is a certain shall we say "muscle memory" that comes from writing something out. And doing it on paper somehow feels more worthy of the effort to me than typing it. It's also a way to write Italian by hand which I haven't exactly done much before in my life. Then there is Assimil. I have to admit I haven't really gotten that much out of it. Somehow I don't like the booklet, I have to hold it open with both hands, which means I can't easily control the music player if I'm also listening to the lesson and pausing/rewinding it. I have tried some of the methods mentioned aroud the forum that involve 6-7 passes over each lesson, but it just doesn't appeal to me. I also tried initially to do dictations, and then roundtrip translation of each lesson, but I gave it up because I didn't feel it was teaching me very much. So Assimil has been mostly a footnote so far. I don't dislike the dialogs in it, or even the explanations which are quite good. It's just put together in a way that doesn't appeal to me. I suppose I will end up going through all the lessons eventually so that I can extract the highly practical language they contain. Nowadays from time to time I will listen to a few lessons in bed and then the next day read them over in the booklet. But this is not a regular activity and I don't record it in my spreadsheet. Edited by numerodix on 09 January 2010 at 2:12pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 61 of 182 14 October 2009 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I found this explanation in the book about the mysterious -ci.
Con vedere e sentire è necessario indicare l'oggetto: - Dalla mia finestra vedo la campagna. - Vedo che siete stanchi. - Sento il rumore del traffico. - Sento che la situazione cambierà. Con vederci e sentirci si dà ai verbi "vedere" e "sentire" il significo di essere in grado di vedere o sentire in assoluto o in una determinata situazione: - Senza occhiali non ci vedo per niente. [Without glasses I don't see at all.] - Ci vedi bene da qui? [Do you see well from here?] (is he talking about seeing some particular object from here?) - Perché gridi tanto? Ci sento bene! [Why are you yelling? I hear well.] - Ci senti bene da lì? [Do you hear well from there?] (as in "can you hear from where you are"?) Now to me this is still mysterious. I guess the assumption is that someone who knows what these examples mean would think "oh I see how it works now, based on an example I understand". But if you don't? I've guessed at the meaning, but please correct my translation. Edited by numerodix on 14 October 2009 at 7:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6101 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 62 of 182 14 October 2009 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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The basic meaning of ci is that of "us" (transitive verbs) and "ourselves" (reflexive verbs) - "nas/nam" and "się".
Then there is the meaning of "in/on it", an example of which was a few posts above. "The oven is hot - put THERE the cake". *** These your examples are special uses with these two verbs. It means "ability to see/hear" in that special context, as opposed to seeing/hearing something specific. Your translations are good.
No, just ability to see. "Are you able to see well from here?" In all these examples you could have omitted the "ci" and it would have been ok, more neuter. Edited by Leopejo on 14 October 2009 at 7:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 63 of 182 14 October 2009 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's exactly what I was thinking! Gah, complication for nothing. Thanks like always :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| numerodix Trilingual Hexaglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6775 days ago 856 posts - 1226 votes Speaks: EnglishC2*, Norwegian*, Polish*, Italian, Dutch, French Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 64 of 182 15 October 2009 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
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These last couple of days I've been somewhat less enamored with the lesson. Chapter 12 was on the conditional (which didn't teach me much new material), on uses of andare with a pronoun (mi va di..) and on uses of -ci and -ne. The latter which I previously had somewhat distinct in my head they managed to completely mix me up on. I checked my reference grammar and it really doesn't look as bad in that one. I'm sure it will fall into place with enough reading.
I also feel like I'm losing momentum. I'm nearing the half point of the textbook, so there's quite a lot more to do. Meanwhile the last few days it feels more like a burden even to write out 4 pages. I'm not sure if I should accept the slow down - I work well when things are moving swiftly, less so when the work is spread out over a longer timespan. And I haven't really been doing it for that long, it's been a month. Another month of this and I'll be at 80%. I don't think it's the textbook that's suddenly wrong, my head is just not in the right place for some reason. Maybe it's just the fact that the -ci stuff is really the first thing I failed to completely understand. I suppose that's a pretty good indicator though (in your face, French!). I also watched two movies in Italian the past week, which was fun. And here I thought it was impossible to enjoy a dubbed movie. I also happened to stumble upon a video rental that surprisingly enough has three bookshelves of so called art house movies, meaning off Hollywood. Mostly in French or Spanish but also some in Italian. I feel like it's still a bit early for me to be watching movies, there are a lot of things I miss. But they do help to reinforce the spoken language, like Tom Hanks running around in Rome trying to find a map yelling "mi serve oggi però". :) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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