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Orthographical Question about Croatian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Panglot Tetraglot Newbie United States eiu.edu Joined 6078 days ago 21 posts - 21 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, French Studies: Mandarin, Russian, Italian | Message 1 of 5 04 February 2010 at 4:07am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hello All:
I am using two separate resources for learning Croatian. My older resource from 1976 uses "gde" and "ovde" where my newer program uses "gdje" and "ovdje." Are these dialectical variations of the same words, or do they reflect spelling changes that have occurred in the past 30-ish years since the division of Yugoslavia? Thank you in advance for any information. Panglot 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| goosefrabbas Triglot Pro Member United States Joined 6366 days ago 393 posts - 475 votes  Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: German, Italian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 5 04 February 2010 at 5:20am | IP Logged | |||||
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A post in this thread says - "gdje je onaj čiko is Croatian and Serbian would be gde je onaj čika?"
and a few times in this book there is the line that says - "E gde / J gdje" (E=Ekavian, J=Ijekavian) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 3 of 5 04 February 2010 at 6:25am | IP Logged | |||||
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Which books are you using for Croatian?
gde = gdje = where; ovde = ovdje = here These are stylized dialectal variants of the same words. The spelling changes that they reflect are not reflective of what happened during the days of communist Yugoslavia. The rule of thumb for interpreting such differences in your books is as follows: When the book is teaching you to say "gde" or "ovde" you are effectively learning "Serbian". When the book is teaching you to say "gdje" or "ovdje" you are effectively learning "Bosnian"/"Croatian"/"Serbian". ******* The explanation for this funny-looking rule of thumb follows. (Forgive me for the length of this post but this difference between "gde" and "ovde" on one side and "gdje" and "ovdje" on the other can't be explained satisfactorily without reference to a bit of linguistic history). The reason for the difference reflects how a vowel in Proto-Slavonic called "yat" (sometimes spelled ě) evolved as the proto-language fragmented into separate Slavonic languages/dialects. In the Balkans, "yat" evolved into -e-, -ije-, -ja-, -je- or -i- depending on the dialect. When Serbo-Croatian began to be standardized starting around 1850, the descendant of "yat" was being pronounced as -ije- or -je- in the dialect that was used as the model for standardization. This dialect (called by linguists Neo-Shtokavian-Ijekavian) was and is still used natively in territory that extends from far southern Croatia through eastern Bosnia-Hercegovina, Montenegro and into southwestern Serbia (because of public education of standard languages, educated native speakers in Bosnia, Croatia, and Montengero are now fluent in Neo-Shtokavian-Ijekavian). By this sound change... *kъdě = "where" (Proto-Slavonic) evolved into gdje in Neo-Shtokavian-Ijekavian *ovъdě = "here" (Proto-Slavonic) evolved into ovdje in Neo-Shtokavian-Ijekavian. Therefore it was initially codified as "gdje" and "ovdje" in any territory where the new standard of Serbo-Croatian was to be used. However people in northern Serbia (including the capital, Belgrade) did not pronounce the old "yat" as -ije-, or -je-. They pronounced it instead as -e- and had been doing since the Middle Ages. Therefore instead of saying "gdje" and "ovdje", these northern Serbs would say "gde" and "ovde". Despite the initiation of work on a new Serbo-Croatian standard, these particular Serbs retained the pronunciation that seemed "natural" to them. For these northern Serbs, pronouncing words like "gde", "ovde", "reka" (river) and the like as "gdje", "ovdje" or "rijeka" seemed "unnatural" or a trait of either peasants from southern Serbia or of Serbs who had migrated to areas surrounded by Bosniaks, Croats or Montenegrins. About 10 to 20 years after work began on the new standard, the influence of these northern Serbs on the standardization process was such that Serbo-Croatian began to be expressed in two versions. Namely the original version with -ije- or -je- (called "štokavsko-ijekavski" and later associated with the Croatian or "Western" variant of Serbo-Croatian), and a second version with -e- (sometimes called "štokavsko-ekavski" and later associated with the Serbian or "Eastern" variant of Serbo-Croatian). This split between "štokavsko-ijekavski" and "štokavsko-ekavski" was often simplified as the former representing "Croatian" and the latter representing "Serbian". This reduction however ignored the fact that many Serbs (including those in southwestern Serbia) don't speak "štokavsko-ekavski" natively but rather some "štokavsko-ijekavski" sub-dialect as their native one. Virtually all native speakers of "štokavsko-ekavski" are Serbs (or often identify themselves as such), but native speakers of "štokavsko-ijekavski" can be one of Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins or Serbs. The difference between a word pronounced in "ekavian" and that in "(i)jekavian" is noticeable, but it rarely hinders comprehension. There's another set of dialects now spoken in southwestern Croatia, western and southern Bosnia-Hercegovina, and along the border of Croatia and Serbia which is called "ikavski". As you can guess, these people use some dialect where the "yat" is now pronounced as "-i-". "Ikavski" dialects were effectively ignored in the standardization process, and using them mark the user as someone who's not following the standard language, be it Serbo-Croatian, Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin or Serbian. As an example, people speaking a sub-dialect of "ikavski" may use "gdi" for "gdje"/"gde". A few other words (among many) that illustrate the shift of "yat" into -e-, -i- or -(i)je- include: CHILD dete (Ekavski) / dite (Ikavski) / dijete (Ijekavski) (source in Proto-Slavonic: *děte) FAITH vera (Ekavski) / vira (Ikavski) / vjera (Ijekavski) (source in Proto-Slavonic: *věra) WORD reč (Ekavski) / rič (Ikavski) / riječ (Ijekavski) (source in Proto-Slavonic: *rěčь = "speech") DICTIONARY rečnik (Ekavski) / ričnik (Ikavski) / rječnik (Ijekavski) (derivative of reč/rič/riječ above) I hope that this helps. Sretno! Chung 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Panglot Tetraglot Newbie United States eiu.edu Joined 6078 days ago 21 posts - 21 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, French Studies: Mandarin, Russian, Italian | Message 4 of 5 04 February 2010 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Thank you both very much for the information.
I'm currently using TY's older version for "Serbo-Croat" as well as "Spoken World: Croatian," which is about a year or two old. Best, Panglot 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 5 of 5 04 February 2010 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
No problem.
Ah, I see. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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