Register  Login  Active Topics  Maps  

The role and usefulness of Irish

 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages Post Reply
162 messages over 21 pages: << Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 13 ... 20 21 Next >>
Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7160 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 97 of 162
16 March 2012 at 7:32pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
Chung wrote:
Марк wrote:
Teango wrote:
It always strikes me as sad when people
don't want to speak or learn
about their own language and cultural heritage. So very sad.

I've often spoken at length about this subject with good Ukrainian friends of mine, as
well as people from other countries. They tell me that the Ukrainian language was
heavily
oppressed in the Soviet Union. Children studied Ukrainian at school, but no-one really
spoke it or saw much use for it.

Do you believe them? All the Ukrainian revival is built on oppressing of Russian.


*facepalm*

You think that Ukrainian was heavily oppressed in the Soviet Union too?
You have some arguments? why don't express them? Anyway this statement is nonsense.


Uhmm... I was thinking of these attitudes as an outgrowth of this.

Moral of the story: Don't jump to conclusions.
1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5060 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 98 of 162
16 March 2012 at 7:46pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:


Uhmm... I was thinking of these attitudes as an outgrowth of
this.

Moral of the story: Don't jump to conclusions.

What "this"? I've read the article and it is written there
"The term Little Russia (that traces its origin to the medieval times) used to be
widely used as the name for the geographic territory. Since the middle of the 17th
century the modern name "Ukraine" (Ukrayina) (first found in the 12th century
chronicles) was used sporadically, until it was reintroduced in the 19th century by a
conscious effort of several writers concerned about the awakening of the Ukrainian
national awareness.[16] It was not until the 20th century when the modern term
"Ukraine" started to prevail while Little Russia gradually fell out of use."
Украина means окраина and was used to various areas.
But that doesn't say anything to the false statement that Ukrainian was suppressed
during the Soviet period. It was strongly supported.
1 person has voted this message useful



aodhanc
Diglot
Groupie
Iceland
Joined 6264 days ago
92 posts - 130 votes 
Speaks: English*, FrenchB2
Studies: Spanish

 
 Message 99 of 162
16 March 2012 at 7:49pm | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
Chung wrote:


Uhmm... I was thinking of these attitudes as an outgrowth of
this.

Moral of the story: Don't jump to conclusions.

What "this"? I've read the article and it is written there
"The term Little Russia (that traces its origin to the medieval times) used to be
widely used as the name for the geographic territory. Since the middle of the 17th
century the modern name "Ukraine" (Ukrayina) (first found in the 12th century
chronicles) was used sporadically, until it was reintroduced in the 19th century by a
conscious effort of several writers concerned about the awakening of the Ukrainian
national awareness.[16] It was not until the 20th century when the modern term
"Ukraine" started to prevail while Little Russia gradually fell out of use."
Украина means окраина and was used to various areas.
But that doesn't say anything to the false statement that Ukrainian was suppressed
during the Soviet period. It was strongly supported.


Please remember that the topic of this thread is the Irish language - not Russian / Ukrainian.
2 persons have voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5060 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 100 of 162
16 March 2012 at 7:57pm | IP Logged 
It's not me who started this discussion. But such claims are like saying that irish is
heavily oppressed in Ireland because it is used less than English. Total ignoring the
reality.
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7160 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 101 of 162
16 March 2012 at 8:02pm | IP Logged 
I'll put it bluntly since you fail to see the point or my reasoning.

Denigration of one's sense of identity (which can include language as in this case where "Ukrainianess" heavily incorporates knowledge of Ukrainian even though to me in the Anglosphere the equation of language with ethnicity is ultimately a dead end. cf. the distinct "ethnic groups nations" which speak only one of English, French, German, Portuguese or Spanish) leads only to more denigration. Here, contradicting Ukrainian sensibilities or implying some subordination to "Russianness" (i.e. "Little Russia", "Little Russian" - or in crude nationalist terms "they're just (misguided) Russians but don't know it" - notice that I don't care about the USSR since I actually believe that Ukrainian faced pressure in its formative period - i.e. in the Czarist days or even when the Poles were in charge) leads to a reversal where some Russians (or monolingual Russophones of Ukrainian citizenship feel rightly or wrongly) shut out of current Ukrainian life.

Again, the moral of the story: don't jump to conclusions.
1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 5060 days ago
2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 102 of 162
16 March 2012 at 8:18pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
I'll put it bluntly since you fail to see the point or my reasoning.

Denigration of one's sense of identity (which can include language as in this case
where "Ukrainianess" heavily incorporates knowledge of Ukrainian even though to me in
the Anglosphere the equation of language with ethnicity is ultimately a dead end. cf.
the distinct "ethnic groups nations" which speak only one of English, French, German,
Portuguese or Spanish) leads only to more denigration. Here, contradicting Ukrainian
sensibilities or implying some subordination to "Russianness" (i.e. "Little Russia",
"Little Russian" - or in crude nationalist terms "they're just (misguided) Russians but
don't know it" - notice that I don't care about the USSR since I actually believe that
Ukrainian faced pressure in its formative period - i.e. in the Czarist days or even
when the Poles were in charge) leads to a reversal where some Russians (or monolingual
Russophones of Ukrainian citizenship feel rightly or wrongly) shut out of current
Ukrainian life.

Again, the moral of the story: don't jump to conclusions.

If you had read the article more carefully, you would have noticed that the term Little
Russia was used by Ukrainians themselves and was not invented by Russians.
During the Soviet period Ukrainian identity and the language were strongly supported by
the government, but now Russian identity and Russian language are oppressed in Ukraine.
Russian speakers in Ukraine do not shut out of Ukrainian life but the government tries
to replace Russian language by Ukrainian.

1 person has voted this message useful



Gallo1801
Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
Joined 4906 days ago
164 posts - 248 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Arabic (Written), Croatian, German, French

 
 Message 103 of 162
17 March 2012 at 4:12am | IP Logged 
Say what you want about the secret code effect, but I´m uncommonly jealous about the
fact that I can´t converse in my native language in peace.

I am a native English speaker, and being on my Erasmus semester and having many foreign
friends at home, it as if the entire world knows my mother tongue, but then my friends
can speak to their compatriots in Portuguese, Polish, French, or Japanese without
worrying about other people listening. When my English speaking friends talk, everyone
around knows what we say.

I´m not going to say that I'm Irish, but my last name is and it is one of the places
that went into the making of me (Besides Wales, England, Scotland, and Spain) I'd love
to cajole a few friends to learn it so we could speak it together as our own 'national
language'. Being a native English speaker have a lot of advantages, but also a lot of
things left to be desired that people who aren't wouldn't think about.

(for the record I'm interested in Irish just because it is beautiful and different from
all of the other European sub-families. But the secret code possibility part also
enthralls me.)
1 person has voted this message useful



Volte
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Switzerland
Joined 6443 days ago
4474 posts - 6726 votes 
Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian
Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese

 
 Message 104 of 162
17 March 2012 at 11:59am | IP Logged 
Марк wrote:
Chung wrote:
Марк wrote:
Teango wrote:
It always strikes me as sad when people
don't want to speak or learn
about their own language and cultural heritage. So very sad.

I've often spoken at length about this subject with good Ukrainian friends of mine, as
well as people from other countries. They tell me that the Ukrainian language was
heavily
oppressed in the Soviet Union. Children studied Ukrainian at school, but no-one really
spoke it or saw much use for it.

Do you believe them? All the Ukrainian revival is built on oppressing of Russian.


*facepalm*

You think that Ukrainian was heavily oppressed in the Soviet Union too?
You have some arguments? why don't express them? Anyway this statement is nonsense.
The Ukrainian language was supported that time.


I was in Ukraine last summer. Among other things, people seemed to consider the Ukranian famine/Holodomor to be deliberate genocide; information about it was passed around to visitors.



4 persons have voted this message useful



This discussion contains 162 messages over 21 pages: << Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21  Next >>


Post ReplyPost New Topic Printable version Printable version

You cannot post new topics in this forum - You cannot reply to topics in this forum - You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum - You cannot create polls in this forum - You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page was generated in 0.4219 seconds.


DHTML Menu By Milonic JavaScript
Copyright 2024 FX Micheloud - All rights reserved
No part of this website may be copied by any means without my written authorization.