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The role and usefulness of Irish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| neiliog93 Triglot Newbie Ireland Joined 4534 days ago 4 posts - 8 votes Speaks: English*, Irish, FrenchB1 Studies: German, Italian, Swedish | Message 121 of 162 30 June 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Don't learn Irish for its 'usefulness' or 'role'. About 35,000 people live in the
Gaeltacht areas of Ireland, where Irish is the language of business. The total number of fluent (i.e as good as natives or very close) speakers in the country is around 100,000 AFAIK. So, we have 100,000 who use the language daily outside of the education system in a country of 4.5 million. If you're gonna learn it, do it for cultural reasons or just interest, I'd say. All public bodies have an obligation to enter correspondence and display signs in Irish, and there's some good translator jobs going, particularly at EU level. Basic fluency in Irish is also a requirement for all primary schools teachers, and as its a compulsory subject until the Leaving Cert exams in Ireland (equivalent of A levels) there's plenty of demand for Irish teachers at that level. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4832 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 122 of 162 02 July 2012 at 11:21am | IP Logged | ||||||||
But (speaking of Wales) it wasn't only the English who denigrated Welsh. Such influential voices as Dylan Thomas (himself an absolute master of the English language) had no sympathy for the Welsh language. I think this was (to try to be fair) because people with his view thought that Welsh held the people of Wales back, in a world that was already beginning to be dominated by English. The situation with Welsh these days seems to be somewhat healthier, and if it is better than that of Irish, then maybe Welsh was lucky that there was still a large enough critical mass of people who spoke it as a living language when the tide began to turn, and people started encouraging Welsh again, in Wales, so it was relatively easy for learners to gain exposure. Nevertheless, I don't think there is any room for complacency. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Tyr Senior Member Sweden Joined 5786 days ago 316 posts - 384 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Swedish | Message 123 of 162 05 July 2012 at 4:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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'England' (England? Come on. Ireland was part of the UK, not England. I hate it when people say England particularly in this kind of context, it usually links up with finger pointing and blame) never forced English on Ireland.
Quite the opposite in fact. It was Irish parents who saw Gaelic as a useless and backwards tongue of hicks and to give their kids more opportunities in life they should learn the urban, international language of English. In fact it was the anglo-Irish who led the way in preserving Gaelic. Left up to the celts themselves it would have died. Anyway. On topic- yeah, Irish is 'useless'. It is something you learn for cultural and historical reasons, not so you can communicate with people. Not that there is anything wrong with learning a language for that reason. Other languages in the UK and being punished- this wasn't down to some nationalist English policy of wanting to eradicate other cultures. There were a few reasons for teaching in only English in schools. The main two were: 1: It was easier and cheaper. In a world where not every kid has even basic education should an education ministry really be wasting money on trying to translate text books into a minority language? 2: Opportunity. Teachers thought they were doing a good thing by punishing those who spoke something other than standard English. Learning standard English was the way to a succesful future. Even to this day in the UK kids often get in trouble for speaking non-standard English in schools. Its not just Welsh and the like I'm talking about here but English dialects too. As with the Irish parents often the Welsh parents agreed that this was for the best for their kids. Looking down on Welsh as a sub-par language was very common amongst the Welsh until very recent times; the English establishment tended to have far more favourable views of it, seeing it as a quaint and wonderful relic in much the same way you get "Poverty tourists" these days; it wasn't holding back their progress afterall. In fact my surname is Brythonic. My grandfather changed the spelling of it from a far more true to its routes Welsh spelling to something that looked more English because he felt the Welsh spelling looked common and lower class. Sorry to go off on a bit of a rant but I really hate the whole blackwashing of history to the evil English opressing the poor little celts. Its just wrong. Edited by Tyr on 05 July 2012 at 4:30am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6707 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 124 of 162 05 July 2012 at 9:24am | IP Logged | ||||||||
It is not wrong. Without people like Edward I of England (Scotland, Wales) or Henry II and later Henry VIII (Ireland) doing evil things to the poor little celts there wouldn't even be an English speaking population in those places. And without later generations of ruthless English rulers (including local nobility imported from England and their staff) the poor little celts wouldn't have found it practical to switch to English. But history is history even when it is nasty, and now the majority of the Irish have English as their mother tongue, and it is understandable if they prefer speaking a world language and not a language which almost noone outside the island can understand. I have the deepest sympathy for those who carry on the Celtic torch, and I'm in the process of learning Irish myself, but the status you can hope for for the Irish language is as second language with the role of profiling the Irish country as something different from other Anglophone countries. And in that context the main problem seen from abroad appear to be that the teaching of Irish is done in a way that doesn't produce fluent second language speakers. Edited by Iversen on 05 July 2012 at 9:30am 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5060 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 125 of 162 05 July 2012 at 11:33am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Henry VIII didn't influence the Irish language much as well as the whole Ireland, because
he controlled only the Pale. Ireland was conquered later. Irish was replaced by English because of its low social status, which was a result of British policy in Ireland. It was exiled from the spheres where it had been used for a thousand years. Irish upper classes were destroyed, Irish lower classes lost many lands. Edited by Марк on 05 July 2012 at 11:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4832 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 126 of 162 05 July 2012 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Contrast that with the state of English after the Norman invasion.
The ruling classes spoke French; the general population spoke Anglo-Saxon, and although they were oppressed, Anglo-Saxon/Old English survived, although heavily influenced by Norman French. Why? Well, perhaps because there was no mass education. Beyond the ability to collect their taxes and raise armies, I suppose the nobility didn't really care what language the common people spoke. Getting back to Irish, and picking up Iversen's point, the Irish powers that be need to step back and see if they are doing anything wrong, and if the can learn anything from the teaching of Welsh, or indeed any other minority language. My instinctive feeling is that it somehow has to come from a "bottom up" movement, not a "top down" one, i.e. it shouldn't be perceived as being forced on people. There needs to be an enthusiasm for it at grass roots. I presume that exists to some extent in Wales. Partly that has been done through the arts, e.g. through the Eisteddfods. But not everyone is turned on by such things, and I suspect it has to be done at a more accessible level. (e.g. Pop music? If Irish could be seen as being "cool", you might appeal to the youngsters, although you'd be in danger of putting off other sections of society). . 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5060 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 127 of 162 05 July 2012 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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They do something like that. There is TG4, they try to make Irish a little bit cooler.
I don't think Irish and Welsh are really forcefully introduced, despite being mandatory school subjects. Edited by Марк on 05 July 2012 at 12:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6155 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 128 of 162 05 July 2012 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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If the Irish government, were told by the IMF, that they could no longer afford to teach or support the language, and that it would be wound up, a lot more people would start learning it.
2 persons have voted this message useful |
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