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Esperanto’s benefit for language learners | ||
Tags: Esperanto | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Esperanto |  | |
| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5437 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 41 of 78 15 April 2010 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Honestly, I think it is because other languages have either a national or ethnic identity associated with them and so aren't referred to as "social clubs". It seems to me similar to asserting that Palestinians don't have a culture because they don't have a country. Make the statement that natural language X is invalid because they 1. have no country or 2. have no ethnic identity and you'll get the same response. Plus, social clubs do have cultures--if by culture you mean a set of beliefs and practices that are passed from generation to generation by learning. Consider the Freemasons. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5437 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 42 of 78 15 April 2010 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Ok, this book already has me converted. Don't leave HTLAL yet please! At least, not without first suggesting your favorite piece of Esperanto literature. Holding a quality book in my hand I can't read is my prime motivator. d. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Splog Diglot Senior Member Czech Republic anthonylauder.c Joined 5673 days ago 1062 posts - 3263 votes Speaks: English*, Czech Studies: Mandarin | Message 44 of 78 15 April 2010 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Because of this tendency. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7148 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 45 of 78 15 April 2010 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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My use of "social club" was sparked by Tombstone's earlier use of "club". I regret that people such as, say, Blunderstein, may find it demeaning, but it still strikes me as a pretty apt description for the type of grouping in question. I've used "movement" as well, but I perceive very little actual movement, despite the protestations of the True Believers, and I suspect that calling it a "movement" would probably also not really be appropriate. "Cult" is probably too strong, although I do think there are some similarities, at least among some people.
For me, at least, it's the "self-congratulatory" aspect that seems so evident, and so puzzling. I liken it to MENSA, which I would again characterize as largely a "social club", the main purpose of which, I gather, is to join together with other high-IQ types to, I suppose, revel in one's superiority to others who don't qualify for membership. Esperanto is obviously less explicitly elitist; it has, or at least at one time had, aspirations to become an international auxiliary language, which have never been realized in a more than trivial sense and almost certainly never will be. (Like it or not -- and some clearly do not -- English is largely playing this role, and I suspect will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.) But clearly at least some Esperantists, including people who make it plain they're only relatively recent learners, seem to identify very emotionally with Esperanto in a way that I don't see happening with other languages people pick up, study, abandon, pick up again, etc. I accept that social clubs have "culture" of a sort, and have no problem with accepting that of Esperanto in this way, but don't see it as equating to national or ethnic cultures. Indeed, this strong identification with Esperanto seems to be part of that culture, at least for some, and it strikes me as just that which leads to the heightened degree of emotion on threads involving Esperanto. (Note that we've had a few earlier threads on other constructed languages, which haven't led to the Sturm und Drang that seems to infect almost every thread on Esperanto.) In any event, while having no interest in studying or using Esperanto, I do find it interesting as a social phenomenon, and particularly the way in which, in a language forum, it seems to lead to a degree of acrimony that doesn't seem to occur in discussions of other languages or language issues. My view, as expressed earlier, is that it seems to stem largely from the attitudes expressed by its more enthusiastic proponents. Others in the forum have expressed similar thoughts, so I'm clearly not the only one with this perception, but whether this perception is really accurate is of course open to debate. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| daristani Senior Member United States Joined 7148 days ago 752 posts - 1661 votes Studies: Uzbek | Message 46 of 78 15 April 2010 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thanks, Splog, for finding that cartoon! I saw it some time ago and it's long been my favorite internet-related cartoon, but I lost the URL to it.
And, unfortunately, it does seem to sum us all up pretty well... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6015 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 47 of 78 15 April 2010 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Because there's nothing new to discuss. Each conversation starts with either "Esperanto is great" or "Esperanto is rubbish" and the same arguments come out.
I personally tend to avoid threads that are "internally" Esperanto (as in about Esperanto and for speakers of Esperanto, not the evangelical threads such as this one), so I wasn't aware that this happened. That's way beyond rude. I certainly don't appreciate other people chipping into discussions on Celtic languages with jibes about "dead languages" or "primitive languages", and I wouldn't do that to someone else's choice of language.
It is this imposition that generates opposition. Some people go too far, certainly, but I for one am tired of this forum's constant pounding of Esperanto as somehow more important or more beneficial than the languages I'm studying. Because, you see, both happen. There is Esperanto-thrashing and there is Esperanto tub-thumping. They are in equal quantity, and in fact both parties attempt to impose their personal views as universal truths. Both sides react to each other and both sides escalate. Both impose and cause the other to oppose. But as far as I can see, it almost always starts with the pro-Esperanto view... like this thread. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dmaddock1 Senior Member United States Joined 5437 days ago 174 posts - 426 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Esperanto, Latin, Ancient Greek | Message 48 of 78 15 April 2010 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Well said, darisani. As a newcomer to this forum (without strong bias either way), I can say my impression upon reading through a lot of the Esperanto threads for information was that in almost every thread someone had to chime in with the comment that "Esperanto has no culture; it's fake, why bother? etc." Now, this may or may not be true, but even I found it tiresome and I am wholly uninvested in the language. I suspect though that half the problem is that people feed the trolls. I should say though that I found your posts well-considered and reasonable, as exampled above. I think I'll take my request for discussion on Esperanto literature to a new thread that would be more appropriate, but I fear it will degenerate into the same conversation. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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