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Is Croatian considered hardcore? | ||
Tags: Croatian | Difficulty | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| !LH@N Triglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6819 days ago 487 posts - 531 votes  Speaks: German, Turkish*, English Studies: Serbo-Croatian, Spanish | Message 17 of 38 28 April 2010 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
This is a very bad example though. Both sentences work in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian! The sentences mean exactly the same! If I remember right DA is usually translated as "to", it is used when several verbs come one after the other. The verbs after DA have to be conjugated in the right person. In Crotia (and Bosnia) DA is seen as a very very very very "Serbian" word, and from what I know usually avoided if possible. That's why the other sentence is listed as Croatian. It ommits the DA and gives the verbs in infinitive. You can say both sentences in both languages though, and if you learn Croatian you will learn how to use DA and vice versa. Regards, Ilhan 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Danac Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5346 days ago 162 posts - 257 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, Serbo-Croatian, French, Russian, Esperanto | Message 18 of 38 28 April 2010 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
Your post seems to be going in the wrong direction at times. Also, what you're saying isn't exactly true, although you seems to have a basic grasp of the situation. First off, this is a rather fine example of a couple of formal differences between standard Croatian and standard Serbian. In Bosnian, both options, or a mix of both, might be possible depending on the speaker at hand. There are two things going on here at the same time: Of course, there is the case of verbs following modal verbs, but there is also an embedded question at the same time. If we just write it as a normal question: Hoćeš li početi raditi? (Croatian) (Will you start working?) Da li hoćeš da počneš da radiš? (Serbian) (Same) This is to show the other feature, namely that Serbian makes questions with "Da li...", while Croatian inserts the particle "li". Da is not "usually" translated as "to", but it might be. As part of the construction "Želim da znam" we could certainly say that it can be, but otherwise it would normally be translated as "that", amongst other things. When it comes down to who does what and where, it is certainly not normal to say "da li" or to use the "da + present" construction in Croatia. Likewise, it is not normal to just say "li" or use the infinitive wih modal verbs (and other verbs that take the infinitive) in Serbia. In Bosnia, there seems to be a mix of forms, and my basic grammar says the same. (Ronelle Alexander, BCS - A grammar) My experience supports this as well, since I occasionally meet some Bosnians here and there. The status of "da" is only seen as strictly "Serbian" in the context of said constructions (da li..?/da+present) and apart from that it might well be the most regular conjunction in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro, since it simply means "that" - no stigma attached! Regarding what you can say and what you can't say, you would certainly be understood with both sentences in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro. It would not be correct to imply that you can say both things in both languages - you can, but not if you want to speak correctly according to the language norms of those countries. You might also get some strange looks or a little attitude if you talk Croatian in Serbia or vice versa... Sad but true... Finally: This is a textbook example of these features, neither good nor bad, but nevertheless correct... Edited by Danac on 28 April 2010 at 5:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| bushwick Tetraglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 6242 days ago 407 posts - 443 votes Speaks: German, Croatian*, English, Dutch Studies: French, Japanese | Message 19 of 38 28 April 2010 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
sorry, but why is it a bad example? Of course they work in all three languages, but in Croatian it wouldn't be grammatically correct. It's a perfectly good example to illustrate my point; that the languages are essentially the same, but there are still differences, some of which can confuse someone unfamiliar with them. In response to the above comment; "da li" is still often used in Croatian, but is not technically correct "Da li imaš novce?" when it should be said "Imaš li novce? Also, while I would encourage to nowadays learn either Serbian or Croatian, you would generally get far from weird looks in both countries, most people would simply be fascinated by foreigners even attempting to speak it so I think social stigma would be very secondary in the situation. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6260 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 20 of 38 28 April 2010 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It's "da li imaš novca" or "da li imaš novac"
I apologize, I just talked to my mom, it seems Croats do say indeed "da li imaš novce" which I personally never heard and it really sounds so grammatically incorrect and funny... but interesting, didn't know of this peculiarity of Croatian. For the record, I speak Bosnian it's just that it's very unjustly kept out from the language list. Edited by Fazla on 28 April 2010 at 6:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Danac Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5346 days ago 162 posts - 257 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, Serbo-Croatian, French, Russian, Esperanto | Message 21 of 38 28 April 2010 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's an interesting point about "da li" or "li" and its use in Croatia - I didn't know that, but then again, most of my knowledge comes from textbooks and the occasional native talkers I meet are mostly Bosnians. I was probably also exaggerating when I described the responces you might get from native speakers. I'm sure most people in and from the region are positive towards anyone trying to learn Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin, and especially people on vacation and such. The people I have met from the region who live here have all been very friendly to me, no doubt, but also a bit confused about why I would want to learn their language. Ali tako je... This kind of overbearing attitude can be very good, but once you get beyond the standard greetings and a few basic phrases or words, you're entering into another realm, where you have to be conscious of the way you talk. You might quickly be identified as a foreigner, but that isn't always an excuse to mess things up or to mix Serbian or Croatian. People might begin to take offense, if you continually use a word or a construction that isn't normally used there. A short note about how I'm learning the language: I study BCS at my local university, and as such we focus on all three languages to the extent that we learn the different forms and different ways to do things. (da li/li, da+present/infinitive) What I mean is, we don't exclusively look at Croatian or Serbian, but we try to make sure we don't forget that forms deviate, and that Serbian is like this, and Croatian is like that. We did, however, choose a language for special attention some time ago, and I've chosen Bosnian because that was my gateway into the language and the culture of the area, provided by my Bosnian friend. Besides, Bosnian has an interesting vocabulary, since it's a mix of Serbian and Croatian terms, including some special terms only used in Bosnia. Edited by Danac on 28 April 2010 at 6:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6260 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 22 of 38 28 April 2010 at 7:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Very interesting Danac! Bosnian indeed has the most special vocabulary of the three, with more Germanic and Turco-Arab-Persian words in everyday use - I wonder if you study the spoken or the formal version of the language only.
You'll never hear it on TV but I wonder if you know what terms like "ušpariti" or "raja" mean in everyday colloquial Bosnian 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Danac Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5346 days ago 162 posts - 257 votes Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, Serbo-Croatian, French, Russian, Esperanto | Message 23 of 38 28 April 2010 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yeah, I'm greatly aware of the so-called Turcizmi (not necessarily Turkish, as you also pointed out) in the Bosnian language, and it seems to be hard to get around them. To me, they just add a little flavour. They're also an integral part of sevdalinka, which I have come to know and like thanks to my friend. The way we study BCS ends up being pretty much written exercises and grammar drills, because it's necessary for us to learn it, although we do have a few hours each week with a Croatian woman where we try to get a conversation going with the few words we know. In general, it ends up being pretty formal. The spoken forms have begun creeping into my life, since I try to watch a little Bosnian tv (thanks to nettelevizor.com) and talk a little with my Bosnian friend if he's up for it. I do know that "raja" is another word for "people", but I wouldn't know what "ušpariti" means. (German maybe?) In relation to that, my friend and I also call each other "buraz" or "jaran", and the other night he called me "ćafir", just for the fun of it (well, it's right, too)... I might also jokingly ask about his "babo", or about the things going on in his "mahala". Edited by Danac on 28 April 2010 at 7:19pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Fazla Hexaglot Senior Member Italy Joined 6260 days ago 166 posts - 255 votes Speaks: Italian, Serbo-Croatian*, English, Russian, Portuguese, French Studies: Arabic (classical), German, Turkish, Mandarin | Message 24 of 38 28 April 2010 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hahaha that is sooo funny to me but really interesting! Yeah turcizmi are an integral part of the language but as I think you know they aren't confined to Bosnian only, they are just present on a bigger scale.
And you were right, ušpariti comes from German, from sparen, that is, to save money. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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