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Language competence | ||
Tags: CEFR Language Levels | Fluency | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| hrhenry Octoglot Senior Member United States languagehopper.blogs Joined 5129 days ago 1871 posts - 3642 votes  Speaks: English*, SpanishC2, ItalianC2, Norwegian, Catalan, Galician, Turkish, Portuguese Studies: Polish, Indonesian, Ojibwe | Message 66 of 80 16 November 2010 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm curious. For those of you that are criticizing the CEFR, have you actually gone and sat any of the exams?
I've gone through it for two languages. Italian, because as an American I had no choice if I wanted to study for a Laurea in the Italian University system, and Spanish for my own personal reasons. Neither one was geared towards "immigrants" in the sense that Cainntear portrays. R. == 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Raye Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5153 days ago 37 posts - 51 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: DutchB1 | Message 67 of 80 17 November 2010 at 12:41am | IP Logged | |||||
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Very helpful and interesting posts. I had never heard of the CEFR before I began looking for a target to reach with my Dutch. I was happy to find it, and I’m studying for the next level now. An exam is no substitute for proving your proficiency by using the language regularly and successfully in the real world. But the CEFR has been very useful to me as a study goal.
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| Aineko Triglot Senior Member New Zealand Joined 5447 days ago 238 posts - 442 votes Speaks: Serbian*, EnglishC2, Spanish Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 68 of 80 17 November 2010 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
Is this true? I've never looked at the A1 level, but Spanish and Russian C1 and C2 material are nothing like this. You do have (in Russian, at least) a 'business' version of a test, if that is what you need, but the 'everyday' version doesn't deal much (if at all) with job/business. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
 Fasulye Heptaglot Winner TAC 2012 Moderator Germany fasulyespolyglotblog Joined 5846 days ago 5460 posts - 6006 votes 1 sounds Speaks: German*, DutchC1, EnglishB2, French, Italian, Spanish, Esperanto Studies: Latin, Danish, Norwegian, Turkish Personal Language Map | Message 69 of 80 17 November 2010 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
Is the CEFR a system to evaluate the language skills (and fluency) of immigrants? I would say partly yes and partly no. I have sat "Staatexamen Nederlands" NT II (Programma II), which clearly had the target group of immigrants to the Netherlands. In the questionnaire we were asked how long we have already been living in the Netherlands. (Which was a joke in my case because I was living in Germany when I took this exam). My two English exams with an offical CEFR - level were business related. The target group were all those people who wanted to use English professionally. It was independent of whether the candidates wanted to work in an English-speaking country or use their English language skills to work in Germany. My three Esperanto exams don't count because they are not connected to any CEFR language levels and there is no Esperantujo to immigrate(!). Besides this the CEFR language levels are also used for modern textbooks to give the learner an indication of the level which can possibly be obtained after having studied the book. Fasulye Edited by Fasulye on 17 November 2010 at 8:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| noriyuki_nomura Bilingual Octoglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 5339 days ago 304 posts - 465 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Japanese, FrenchC2, GermanC2, ItalianC1, SpanishB2, DutchB1 Studies: TurkishA1, Korean | Message 70 of 80 17 November 2010 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Take the German exams for instance, the Kleines Deutsches Sprachdiplom and the Goethe Oberstufenprufung, both require candidates to read at least 2 literature books out of a selection of 4 that are published every year, while the Grosses Deutsches Sprachdiplom requires you to read at least 4 (this is an exam which I am preparing now so that I can take it in may 2011). If CEFR exams are meant for immigration purposes, I don't think there's a need to set language exams that test candidates on literature.
Likewise for the DALF C1 and C2 exams, I don't see the point in testing immigrants on argumentative essays such as "write an argumentative essay of at least 500 words on the following: writers of every country should have the right to publish and express themselves freely." Even the DFP Affaires C1 exam which I took in February this year required me to present a verbal presentation on the topic "how does the inflation rate affect unemployment rate in my country and the world", and after your presentation, the examiner would then debate with you the effect of the financial crisis that's affecting the world and that requires you to have a knowledge of financial terms in French. I don't think these exams are really geared towards immigrants. Edited by noriyuki_nomura on 17 November 2010 at 8:40pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6010 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 71 of 80 17 November 2010 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Actually, I may have misunderstood something on the CEFR website.
This doc seems to be official... or is it just an example? Setting that aside.... It presents "survival language" skills as A1 and A2, but the first year learner in a foreign classroom doesn't need survival skills, and won't benefit much from being taught them, because survival vocab doesn't do much to support learning of the language as a whole. What I find particularly troublesome is the importance that reading prices and schedules and filling in forms has, because these don't normally require much understanding of the language. I went through some tasks of this form in a Welsh course recently (and now I know why!) and it really didn't strike me as a linguistic challenge, more just decoding symbols. It didn't help me learn the language. But then the fact that CEFR exams aren't testing this sort of stuff proves that the CEFR is not specific. As I said, it is almost as vague as previous grading systems -- the only difference that we are talking as vaguely as always, but with a shared vocabulary. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sennin Senior Member Bulgaria Joined 6033 days ago 1457 posts - 1759 votes 5 sounds | Message 72 of 80 17 November 2010 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
Egh.. this is simply not true. There is very little job related stuff; A1-A2 starts with everyday topics like talking about the weather, talking about people and things. Gradually the topics become more abstract and complex. You're expected to defend a point of view, talk about current problems in society, the environment, social liberties, cultural specifics and so on. If anything, there is too little focus on practical job skills, and quite frankly I find your statement offensive. To say CEFR is for immigrants, is like saying learning languages is for immigrants.
Perhaps it is irrelevant for you, don't generalize. I find it a good way to structure my studies, and to master both the written and the spoken language. Edited by Sennin on 17 November 2010 at 8:43pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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