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Feeling what’s "right" | ||
Tags: Grammar | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery |  | |
| TzilTzal Triglot Newbie Australia Joined 5235 days ago 7 posts - 8 votes Speaks: Modern Hebrew*, English, Arabic (classical) | Message 17 of 27 15 December 2010 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
That's was exactly my point when I asked the question. Native speakers go by what sounds correct. They just have this ability. The question is, can non-native speakers trust their own instincts to know what's correct and what's not? Even when you learn a rule "by the book", it still doesn't mean you'll properly internalize it! Maybe you won't think about it from some point on, but you'll still speak incorrectly. Fluency doesn't necessarily mean you're speaking the language correctly. I agree that no one truly knows how the brain does internalize or infers rules correctly - either during first or second language acquisition. I have to say I find it quite fascinating; probably more the latter than the first. I've always wondered how one can just internalize implicit rules and structures that don't exist in one's native language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6700 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 18 of 27 15 December 2010 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As I see it there isn't a fundamental difference between native speakers and non native speakers - what we have is an immense difference in skills and knowledge. Right now I write in English without using an English grammar and an English dictionary and insofar I follow grammatical rules it is certainly not on the conscious level. Or in other words, I navigate using my instincts exactly as a native speaker, just with instincts that are significantly less trustworthy than those of a native speaker.
With languages I know less well I still rely in my instincts when I speak or write, but I supplement it with explicit rules which I get from grammars or from my own observations. An instinct is something you get when you have internalized a lot of rules - whether or not you discovered those rules, were told about them by your peers or read about them in a grammar book. I don't buy that only native speakers are allowed to judge utterances in their language. If I see something looking like a blatant error in something written by a native speaker, then that person can claim that it is correct according to his/her grammar and maybe it is normal in his/group, but I may still have seen 100.000 examples following rule A1 and just this one following rule A2 so I'm entitled to be sceptical. A native speaker would be in the same situation, but with a background of maybe 1.000.000 cases against one. However if I'm a beginner I have to trust that the native speaker knows the language better, including other variants than his/her own - and why? Because I then haven't seen 100.000 cases of rule A1, but maybe just 10. Edited by Iversen on 15 December 2010 at 1:51pm 8 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| WingSuet Triglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 5348 days ago 169 posts - 211 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English, German Studies: Cantonese | Message 19 of 27 02 January 2011 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've witnessed a clear example of "language feeling" in my English class in school (I am Swedish). The teacher wrote a sentence on the board, I don't remember what exactly but it was something like "I am interested in singing" and then she asked us why the -ing form was used in the word 'singing'. All we could answer was 'it sounds right', nobody could explain why, including me. I could still tell that it was correct though. She then explained the rule about the preposition but I had never learned that rule before. Despite this I still know how to say this sentence correctly since I've heard this form so many times before. I would call that 'language feeling', or 'språkkänsla' as we say in Swedish.
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| Ygangerg Pentaglot Senior Member United States Joined 5315 days ago 100 posts - 140 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Arabic (Written), Mandarin, French Studies: German | Message 20 of 27 22 January 2011 at 5:08am | IP Logged | |||||
Iversen was referring to prescriptive rules. Lingoleng was referring to descriptive rules. The former are rules in the traditional sense--guidelines that humans lay down for themselves and others. The latter are "rules" in a more abstract way, like any patterns of nature... no one enforces them. For example, maintaining a "correct" distinction between "who" and "whom" in English is a prescribed rule. It doesn't always hold and it's no longer natural. Marking regular past tense verbs with "-ed" on the other hand is a rule in the sense that it is simply observed to happen. You don't have to pound it into native speakers' heads like a prescribed rule. That said, my personal experience is that language learners can definitely internalize their new language to the point that what's right sounds--or "feels"--right and what's wrong feels wrong. The only fundamental difference I see is that it takes will and dedication, while a native speaker gets a freeby... Edited by Ygangerg on 22 January 2011 at 5:12am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| espejismo Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5048 days ago 498 posts - 905 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Spanish, Greek, Azerbaijani | Message 21 of 27 05 February 2011 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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When I moved to America as a child, nobody ever bothered to explain me the grammar, so I simply avoided using articles for YEARS. Well, I knew that you have to stick in an "a" when you say something like "I have a cat," but why, or what's deal with "the," was an utter mystery to me, and being a young hooligan, that wasn't something I cared to find out. It wasn't until four years later that I began to pay attention in school and actually use articles, though I still didn't know the rules and relied only on my ability to sense what sounds natural.
I often encounter Russians who left the motherland at a young age and still skip an article here or there, not to mention the many Russians who did learn the grammar but still don't have a feel for the language. Those miss articles whenever they don't pay attention, like when they're typing a reply on some forum. 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kevin Hsu Triglot Groupie Canada Joined 4735 days ago 60 posts - 94 votes Speaks: English, Mandarin*, Korean Studies: German | Message 22 of 27 10 March 2012 at 5:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I haven't studied grammar directly with both the languages in which I am fluent. I only
use my instincts to tell me what is correct in both of these languages and 99.9% of the time they are right. To me, having a "feeling" for what's right/wrong is part of the criteria of fluency. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5053 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 23 of 27 10 March 2012 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
There are no neither definite nor indefinite articles in Russian, that's why we have such problems with them. Of course feeling of the language is necessary. For articles it is extremely difficult to get, but for example the continious tenses can be mastered quickly. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| zerrubabbel Senior Member United States Joined 4597 days ago 232 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 24 of 27 03 November 2012 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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this is not a response to anyone in particular, just my thoughts on the things in this thread that stuck out to me...
first, in my experience so far, with enough speaking, grammar does become intuitive, as long as you arent so obsessed with consciously thinking of the rules and second, I dont think grammar should be viewed as difinite rules, sometimes the colloquial sayings with bad grammar make perfect sense ( every native English speaker, and many non native know what "that aint no burger" would mean if someone said it) not to say that its using good language, but its widely known here is an interesting self check question... have you ever said anything in a TL and new it didnt come out right (not that you tried to make it wrong) as for japanese, I can feel when I am strong or week in a grammar pattern, and to me, thats more valuable then knowing all the rules. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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