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TAC 2011 Team ع - Préposition [AR - RU] | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6142 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 17 of 55 05 January 2011 at 12:18am | IP Logged | |||||
I'm fairly certain you've got this backwards. I believe it's the animate masculine/neuter/plural that follows the genitive and the inanimate masculine/neuter/plural that follows the nominative. For example: Я вижу мальчика. - I see the boy. (animate; follows genitive) Я вижу мальчиков. - I see the boys. (animate; follows genitive) Я вижу учителя. - I see the teacher. (animate; follows genitive) Я вижу учителей. - I see the teachers. (animate; follows genitive) Я вижу цветок. - I see the flower. (inanimate; follows nominative) Я вижу цветы. - I see the flowers. (inanimate; follows nominative) Я вижу окно. - I see the window. (inanimate; follows nominative) Я вижу окна. - I see the windows. (inanimate; follows nominative) (Sorry for the repetitive nature of the sentences.) http://www.russianlessons.net/grammar/nouns_accusative.php Edited by ellasevia on 05 January 2011 at 12:25am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Préposition Diglot Senior Member France aspectualpairs.wordp Joined 5114 days ago 186 posts - 283 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Arabic (Levantine) | Message 18 of 55 05 January 2011 at 12:29am | IP Logged | |||||
I have indeed, I was stupidly copying and pasting my stuff. It's interesting because further down, I actually make a mention, in one of the dative case examples, that inanimate follows the nominative, and I haven't, as far as I can see, made a mistake in my actual examples. I really don't know how I didn't see that mistake, it's bigger than a skyscraper. I totally blame my lack of attention due to my being tired! EDIT: Too many typos… Edited by Préposition on 05 January 2011 at 12:34am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Préposition Diglot Senior Member France aspectualpairs.wordp Joined 5114 days ago 186 posts - 283 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Arabic (Levantine) | Message 19 of 55 06 January 2011 at 1:47am | IP Logged | |||||
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Despite the fact that it was rather late, I stayed up until I actually finished my two chapters of Al-Kitaab. I might be Miss Procrastinator 2010, but I'm also Miss Anxious 2011, and I felt terrible for not having done those. Charlie Owl was not very happy with the mortifying mistake I made for the first time of my life (getting the animate and inanimate accusative confused), and I will most definitely try to improve on the crappiness of my log's layout to avoid ever making such big typos again. Also, as I mentionned before, I own an iPod Touch, on which I put flashcards, but before that, I had another iPod that was useless until I found a new use for it. Indeed, I hate my music being cut by a random Michel Thomas lesson, so I put all of my audio on the old iPod, and the new has the flashcards and the actual music! One last thing, you have to excuse me for the lack of diacritics on Arabic words. They're painstakingly long to write, and there are some I can't even find (the tanween, for example, so if you see a lonely ا at the end of a word, and that it's not a noun, it's likely to be an untanweened adverb) 
The textbook assumes that you already know the alphabet, and probably the basic vocabulary given in the writing textbook that comes in the same collection, "Alif Baa". They don't bother teaching you the basic in the first tome of Al-Kitaab fii Ta3allum Al-3arabiyya, so you have to get used to the eclectic vocabulary lists pretty quickly. The words that any students who had Al-Kitaab (or Al-Shitaab, as it has been lovingly named at uni) will definitely remember are the first ones. "Literature", "United Nations", "area, region" or in short, lovely and enthralling vocabulary to motivate you to learn Arabic. Not. But that's how it is. I do Modern Standard Arabic, and it's used in the media and for political and diplomatic reasons mainly. In the streets, you need colloquial, but I'm currently not focusing on that one.  I listened to the first story that introduces Maha and her family. She explains where she's from and where she lives, but also what her parents do for a living. I then completed a couple of exercises that required listening to the DVD.  The textbook slowly introduces the user to the first three forms of a verb, respectively the 1st person singular, and the feminine and masculine 3rd person singular.You are first introduced to genders, feminine (مؤنث) that usually ends in taa marbutaa, or ة, and masculine (مذكر), the rest (but there are obviously exceptions) When a taa marbuta precedes another noun, especially in a possessive construction, it is voiced, so مدينة نيو وهرك (New York City) will be pronounced "madeenat New York" and not "madeena NY". In Arabic it is very important that the gender of adjectives an verbs related to a noun agree, for example "أدب فرنسي" (French literature). Next comes the definite article, the famous ال (Al-). Its sole purpose is to make a noun definite, for example كتاب (a book) would become الكتاب (the book). However, it is also use with abstract concepts where English (but not French or Italian) would omit "the" ("love", "death", "passion", "knowledge"): الأدب (literature). There again the adjective must follow the definite noun, and not doing so would result in a change of meaning in your sentence. الأدب الفرنسي indeed means "French literature", but الأدب فرنسي means "the literature is French" (both terms are still agreeing). This leads you to realising that, as in Russian, the verb "to be" is omitted in the present tense. Al-Kitaab then goes on to explain what are "nisba" adjectives, or النسبة. They are very simply an adjective formed from a noun, to which is added the suffix ي, for masculine, or ية, for feminine: فرنسا (France) becomes فرنسي/ة (French M/F). The next point presented is about questions, or سؤال. You have questions you can answer by yes or no, and questions that require further information. Yes/No questions are generally introduced by the particle هل, that does not have a direct translation in English, where you would, indeed, use the tone of your voice and change the word order to make it a question. There are lists of interrogative particles, such as ما, ماذا, اي, من, اين and كيف, but also prepositions such as مع, في and من (where, who, which, what (with verbs), what (without verb), how and in/at, with, from).
Probably the best dialog ever. The whole book is slightly depressing anyway, but it all starts with this dialog. Maha explains that her dad is a translator for the UN, that is always busy and that so is her mum, first with her job, then with housework (شغل البيت) . She then use one of the different form of possession, namely لِ/لي, to tell us she has an aunt that lives in LA and works in a bank. And finally, she explains that she's the only child in her family, and that she is "really, truly lonely". This chapter introduces the user to the subject pronouns, orالضمائر. As explained, there are three sets of personal pronouns, subject, object and possessive, and they're not all entirely different. There are more pronouns than in English, for Arabic makes a difference between masculine and feminine pronouns, and it has a set of dual pronouns (god, I hate those). The following list is an enhanced list of what's actually in my book right now:
The next point of grammar is the plural, and unlike English and its one plural pattern (the adding of an S), Arabic has (for its learners' greatest despair) more than ten patterns. I'm obviously not gonne mention them because I don't even know them all, nor can I be bothered learning them, I just guess as I go along. Al-Kitaab says it clearly, you should just learn them properly, because learning all those patterns might just end up confusing you. Agreement rules also apply for plurals, so do not forget the agreement! Almost as in Russian, Arabic makes a difference between human and non-human plurals (yes, there's another trick, here, but I will not get them confused, this time!). To these categories, you can add the broken plurals, yet another delightful specialty of MSA. Let's start with them:
Next grammar point (yes, 3 grammar points in 10 pages is a lot, but that's how Arabic works…) is the nominal sentence, or جملة اسمية. It's called that because it starts with a noun (or a pronoun), how original?! We studied it until we knew it by heart when I was at the University of Damascus, but for the sake of you, poor reader, I will omit some details you simply don't need to know, and probably don't care about. The nominal sentence is made of two things: a noun (in case you hadn't guessed), or اسم, a subject called مبتدأ (it literally means "beginning") and a predicate, or خبر (literally means "information"). The مبتدأ can start with a name (اسم), a demonstrative pronouns (اسم اشارة) or a personal pronoun (ضمير منفصل). The خبر can start with an اسم, a شبة جملة (literally meaning "like a sentence) that, itself, starts with a preposition and is followed by the noun. Finally, it can also start with a proper جملة (sentence).
And that's it for Chapter 2!
Maha tells us more about her extended family on her father's side, or عائلة. She talks about her uncle, aunts and their families, tells us that one of them is an important general in the army, that the other is a teacher in the Politics department of the university of Cairo. The first point is the possessive construction الاضافة. It basically is two nouns together that will form a relationship of possession or belonging. I haven't mastered the construction so this chapter will only be a very basic simple exaplanation of it. This relationship can be thought to be an equivalent of "of" in English as in "the city of New York", مدينة نيو يورك. Before I carry on, I need to explain how a noun can be made definite in Arabic. I already mentionned ال, but proper nouns are already definite (نيو يورك, in this case) and adding a possessive sufix to a noun (اب = father, ابي = my father) also makes it definite. This is very important as in the iDaafa construction, the first word never takes ال, or a possessive suffix, only the final word can: مكتب الاأستذة (the office of the professor) or دفتر الطالب (the student's notebook). IDaafas can be simple (only two nouns) or complex (several nouns). In complex iDaafas, the non-final acts the same as the final word, meaning they can be made definite, but the first word still has to be indefinite: ابن عم والد مها ("the son of the uncle of the father of Maha" or "Maha's father's cousin"). That's it for now with the iDaafa, and I will continue with the next point of grammar, the possessive pronouns. In Arabic, they are suffixes you add to nouns, and a small rules you need to remember is that for nouns ending in ة (so mostly feminine nouns), you need to pronounce the ت sound. Singular ي- My كَ- - Yours (M) كِ- - Yours (F) هُ- - His ها- - Her Dual كما- - Yours (M/F) هما- - Their (M/F) Plural نا- - Our كم- - Yours (M) كنّ- - Yours (F) هم- - Their (M) هَن- - Their (F) And I'm done with Arabic for today, time for a Moroccan dish for lunch!  After avoiding Russian for a huge part of the day, I finally, at 0130am, decided to do what I was meant to do… Today (or am I tomorrow?), I revised the instrumental case, which basically does what it says on the tin. It basically denotes the mean or thing used to perform an action, for example "песать карандашом" means "to write with a pencil." There is, however, a small difference between this construction and the с+Inst. construction that expresses "with" but focuses on the physical presence of the thing, for example "резать ножам" means "to cut with a knife" but "Владимир шëл с ножам" would mean that he left with a knife in his hand. The Instrumental also denotes a movement of the body: "двигать рукой" ("to move one's arm"), and is used in passive constructions such as "дом строится рабочими" ("The house is being built by the workers."). It is used in adverbial expressions denoting parts of the day or seasons (утром/летом), the manner or means by which the action is performed in terms of position (вверх дном - upside down), movement (шагом - at walking pace), group activity (пение хором - singing in chorus), utterance (шëпотом - in a whisper) or by transport (поездам - by train). Finally, this case also denotes a degree of efforts, quantity (тысячами - "par milliers" [FR]), but can also denote a similarity or an association, like "выть волком" - to howl like a wolf. I will put a list of verbs and adjectives that take the instrumental on Quizlet tomorrow. And on this, I will finish for the day. I unfortunately had other obligations today (my poor cat is rather sick), but tomorrow should be better! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| strikingstar Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 5173 days ago 292 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Cantonese, Swahili Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written) | Message 20 of 55 06 January 2011 at 2:19am | IP Logged | |||||
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Nice, maybe I should start summarizing what I've learnt as well. Might help me better remember.
Few quick points. Regarding the second sentence: hadhaa kitaab mashhuur fii kuli al-3alim. I believe it is slightly incorrect. It should be hadhaa al-kitaab mashhuur fii kuli al-3alim. hadhaa kitaab mashuur... means "This is a famous book in the whole world". hadhaa al-kitaab mashhuur... means "This book is famous in the whole world". And if you want to say "This is the famous book in the whole world" you'll go with hadhaa huwa al-kitaab al-mashhuur fii kuli al-3alim". kul is an interesting word. When it precedes a definite noun, it is read as "all". E.g. kul al-3alim = all of the world/the whole world. When it precedes an indefinite noun, it is read as "each". E.g. kul 3alim = each of the world. It can also be used for emphasis. E.g. درسوا كلهم/darasuu kulhum = All of them studied. Personally, I don't even bother learning the different broken plural forms anymore. There are just too many and its difficult to predict which form a word will take. E.g. rajul -> rijaal. kalb -> kilaab, imraa -> nisaa, bank -> bunuuk, mathaf -> mataahif, qism -> aqsaam, yad -> ayaadin, shams -> shummus Nowadays, I just learn both the singular and plural forms for every new word I come across. PS: Hope you don't mind me throwing out these pointers. Edited by strikingstar on 06 January 2011 at 2:36am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6142 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 21 of 55 06 January 2011 at 2:25am | IP Logged | |||||
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Just a couple spelling errors that I noticed in the Russian:
песать --> писать ножам --> ножом (ножам is the dative plural) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Préposition Diglot Senior Member France aspectualpairs.wordp Joined 5114 days ago 186 posts - 283 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Arabic (Levantine) | Message 22 of 55 06 January 2011 at 2:33am | IP Logged | |||||
This is very true, and I definitely have trouble getting this point round my head. Feel free to correct me on any Arabic, I have fallen so far behind the level I should actually have, it's ridiculous, and thanks for the extra info, keep it up, pretty please!
More excuses, but you'll have to excuse my imaginary Russian keyboard. Typing on an AZERTY keyboard when your Russian phonetic keyboard is in QWERTY is not always that easy, especially at 1am, and when you keep switching between cyrillic and arabic, but thanks for spotting them, and I apologies in advance for the many typos that will happen in the future. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| robsolete Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5385 days ago 191 posts - 428 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Arabic (Written), Mandarin | Message 23 of 55 06 January 2011 at 4:05am | IP Logged | |||||
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I have nothing of value to contribute except to say that I'll be watching your fantastic
log like a hawk. I'm actually half-using it as my "textbook" for Russian while I wait for mine to make it across the Atlantic! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Préposition Diglot Senior Member France aspectualpairs.wordp Joined 5114 days ago 186 posts - 283 votes Speaks: French*, EnglishC1 Studies: Russian, Arabic (Written), Swedish, Arabic (Levantine) | Message 24 of 55 06 January 2011 at 4:15am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hah, as nice a comment as it is, please be careful to check by yourself, as you can see there are several
mistakes! I will try to keep explaining grammar as I learn best this way, but some explanations will probably be rather simplistic, or maybe even truncated, depending on my mood. If you need extra material for Russian, have a look at the list on the first page and let me know if you want any of the PDFs. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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