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Who is Creating Parallel Texts? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| kaptengröt Tetraglot Groupie Sweden Joined 4273 days ago 92 posts - 163 votes  Speaks: English*, Swedish, Faroese, Icelandic Studies: Japanese | Message 57 of 76 10 January 2013 at 7:19am | IP Logged | ||
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Hopefully this thread is not dead. Right now I am making Icelandic-English ones for Sherlock Holmes, where I am taking out-of-copyright (at least I assume, when the magazine didn't even list a translator name and the translation is from 1907 and was never used again etc.) Icelandic translations and then translating those translations into more direct English (and possibly eventually Swedish), and adding notes for learners. At the same time I am taking some too-obscure words and modernizing those, modernizing the spellings, and sometimes editing parts in order to make it both closer to the original Sherlock Holmes text and closer to English. So I am only using the original Sherlock Holmes as a reference.
I wouldn't be editing them so much, but I think this is the best thing for learners honestly, since a lot of the confusing sentence structure can be avoided and most of the older words/spellings don't exist in the English-Icelandic dictionary. If someone wants an unedited version they will have to get them from the same place as me, considering as far as I know every time they reprinted any Sherlock Holmes story they re-translated it. I'm not thinking of these books solely for people using the LR-method, otherwise I might not do any editing at all and only translate. I was thinking of working hard on these, paying a native speaker to do recordings of the Icelandic and Icelandic proofreading in case no one volunteers, and then selling them extremely cheaply as ebooks/MP3's (free to you guys or anyone else who asks me personally of course!). In the back of the book I would have a vocabulary list of all the words I put in notes, too. And anything else that someone suggests is a good idea. But I am curious to know, what other types of things people would like to have as bilingual books with audio. For example I can get a lot of old newspaper articles and find funny "tips for housemothers", collect them in a long book and translate them. But perhaps that defeats the original purpose of having a long novel with a consistent writing style, and that keeps you hooked. I am just wondering about the people who don't like fiction novels, what they would want to read. Vintage, Icelandic-translated porn novels exist... For anyone in the future, this is how I am doing it: Go to timarit.is and search for something, download the pages as PDFs (you have to find and download them one at a time), you will figure out how it all works eventually. Then I copy the text (if possible - if not then I copy what I can and manually type in the rest) into a plain text file and skim it in order to fix all the mistakes from the scanning. Then I actually read the text, fixing sentence structure/vocabulary while making it more closely fit the original English version, and translate it to English while making the grammar/vocab notes at the same time as fixing the Icelandic text. (Also a bit unrelated, but I am collecting words that aren't in (or are incorrect in) the Icelandic-English dictionary as I find them while I do this, to make a long list of them that I can then publish for learners who can't read or don't own Icelandic-Icelandic dictionaries.) It actually takes a really long time for me, the time could be cut in half probably if I had someone to paste in the PDF text and fix the scanning errors. I am working on my first one now, when it is complete I can beg for proofreaders and then post it to the wiki and this thread. I am trying to be really thorough since this is my first one, and potentially I could get money from it and all (since I don't have a job and no bilingual texts for Icelandic exist anyway!). I thought it would only take a few days but considering the length (a bit over 20 pages) of the original Icelandic text, then needing to do all the editing and translating etc., it might take me more like a couple weeks... Edited by kaptengröt on 12 January 2013 at 12:51am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4824 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 58 of 76 10 January 2013 at 8:40am | IP Logged | ||
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I love parallel texts! I use Assimil a lot, even though I also complain about it a
lot, and have used parallel texts to get through a lot of French classics. I definitely buy ones that are well made, so good luck with the ones you're working on! Icelandic, though - wow! I think Icelandic, I think sagas. I'm not sure I would bother with buying texts of shorter articles. But ... since you're from Sweden and all ... I was just reading reviews of Röde Orm [The Long Ships}, and it sounds fantastic. And I'm sure there'd be a market for parallel texts for all those Girl Kicking the Hornet's Nest books. I hated the first one, but everyone else in the universe seemed to love it. Similar topic - Alexander Vassiliev has been putting parallel texts of Russian and French classics online at Amazon. There aren't enough reviews to assess his work, and the books are kind of pricey - about $20 US each. Has anyone tried them? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kaptengröt Tetraglot Groupie Sweden Joined 4273 days ago 92 posts - 163 votes Speaks: English*, Swedish, Faroese, Icelandic Studies: Japanese | Message 59 of 76 11 January 2013 at 1:17am | IP Logged | ||
Yes, but they would be REALLY cheap, like a dollar per story including the audio file - These stories are still several pages each, this first one for example is about twenty pages by itself (without a translation or notes). I am planning on having each story be in several formats, ex. if you buy it you would get the same text interlaced and paragraph side-by-side format, in two separate files. Once I get them all translated (all of the Sherlock Holmes stories that are available for example), I would put them in a bundle for a little more discount too. I am not actually from Sweden, I only moved here about half a year ago, heh heh. The Icelandic translator to Swedish would be my wife, who is a native speaker and has also studied Icelandic, and any Swedish audio would be done by my cousin who is also native. Of course anyone else willing to help out (even if they can do no translating/reading and are just checking over the text from the original pictures we take it from) would get some of the money once we finish whatever they worked on and and can start selling... After I get this first one done I am going to make a website for it since we might also create our own stories in Swedish and then translate those. But one of the problems with doing this, and why I am currently doing out-of-copyright stuff, is I will need to make sure selling them can legally be done - I wouldn't be able to do any modern books until later on, when I have officially started a business, have more samples, and thus have the "clout" needed in order to get license permission I think. It might be easier than that for Swedish things but I am not really sure. I kind of don't want to do it if there is not even any potential for me to get paid just because it takes a really long time for me to do all the typing-up and translating and editing and etc. all by myself. Also, please do tell (you and anyone else who reads this) what you think is the best way to do it! Interspaced or paragraphs, what kinds of things should be in the grammar/vocab notes, etc. Edit: I just realised I actually own at least one "mother tongue" Icelandic book from a hundred or more years ago, that is in more simple Icelandic and certainly is out of copyright. After I do the Sherlock Holmes I will do that one (since it was intended for kids it has less word variation overall than Sherlock Holmes does, and has simpler sentences, but the stories are really interesting if you are into Iceland itself). Editx2: I forgot to mention that after I do this Icelandic-English Sherlock Holmes, my wife will work on the Icelandic-Swedish of the same one while I start on a Swedish-Icelandic Sherlock Holmes. Edited by kaptengröt on 11 January 2013 at 2:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kaptengröt Tetraglot Groupie Sweden Joined 4273 days ago 92 posts - 163 votes Speaks: English*, Swedish, Faroese, Icelandic Studies: Japanese | Message 60 of 76 12 January 2013 at 12:54am | IP Logged | ||
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Okay guys! I have a question for you. I saw one of the German-Polish example interlaced text files and thought that worked really well, so I changed my layout. But I am making a lot more notes than they were (I am intending these notes to be even for total beginners of Icelandic). So can you tell me if this looks okay, what I should improve, should I get rid of the notes or translate less directly? Nevermind some mistakes I made, I have since fixed them:
http://imageshack.us/a/img543/3042/skrmavbild20130112kl003.p ng http://imageshack.us/a/img850/3042/skrmavbild20130112kl003.p ng http://imageshack.us/a/img705/3042/skrmavbild20130112kl003.p ng (I was also going to highlight the Icelandic text so it's easier to focus on it.) I was thinking of also doing a side-by-side paragraph layout, for people who like that better, but then I will have to get rid of the notes because it's impossible to fit it all like that (too many notes!). So then I was also thinking of doing a slightly-less-direct translation when I do the side-by-side layout, and leaving out the notes altogether. Of course in addition to both of those formats I would include a plain text file with the original Icelandic with no translations. Edited by kaptengröt on 12 January 2013 at 12:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4824 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 61 of 76 12 January 2013 at 1:03am | IP Logged | ||
If it's electronic, I prefer paragraph by paragraph, with the TL paragraph in dark ink and the translation in a lighter ink. That way I could flick to the translation if needed, but could continue reading in the TL if I didn't. I've read texts that had line by line translations interspersed, but that interrupted the flow of the novel. For books facing-page translations work fine. I think interspersed paragraphs would also work, and might actually be easier. I've downloaded texts that had the two columns per page, a column for the TL and a column for English. That was awkward, though they were free so that was ok. I wouldn't have paid for that format. As it was, I used these mostly as a reference rather than as my primary reading material. I think a bigger question is: is there even a market for Icelandic materials? Edited by kanewai on 12 January 2013 at 1:12am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kaptengröt Tetraglot Groupie Sweden Joined 4273 days ago 92 posts - 163 votes Speaks: English*, Swedish, Faroese, Icelandic Studies: Japanese | Message 62 of 76 12 January 2013 at 3:00am | IP Logged | ||
Thanks for the input!! I was thinking a lot of people liked the two-column layout since that is most of what I had seen online, and someone mentioned it's easier like that since they are closer together. By interspaced paragraphs, do you mean one full paragraph of the language and then one full paragraph of English directly under it? I did think it might be too difficult to scroll with all these notes and the interspaced lines, but at the same time that is what I would have the side-by-side one for. I really wanted to eliminate the need for a dictionary considering the only bilingual dictionaries are utter crap for Icelandic (already ten or so of the words I have translated so far aren't in the English-Icelandic dictionary). It's true that not many people are learning Icelandic (and some people don't even know Icelandic exists as a language), but it's also true that the materials for English speakers to learn Icelandic are mostly bad and old. Plus I have never, ever heard of a bilingual Icelandic book, much less one that would theoretically eliminate the need for a dictionary, and most learning materials are really expensive for whatever reason (because they are really rare if you live outside of Iceland I guess). So I think that Icelandic learners would like it as a resource, since already learners grab anything they can get for learning Icelandic. (Plus I am going to do Swedish eventually and there are more learners for that). It doesn't matter if there is a "market" or not, even if only one person buys it, as long as I help that one person then I will be happy. I have suffered through learning Icelandic to a passable point (and am still suffering through it, even if I can read a lot I am nowhere near fluent!), and Icelandic is not exactly a language with a culture where native speakers will kindly and gladly speak to you in it for more than two seconds. Along with that, there is a lack of modern and in-English materials (most are in Icelandic with not even English example sentences or an English glossary), and the English-Icelandic dictionary is just okay enough to be "decent". I guess it just is, that I really like Icelandic and I really wish it weren't so difficult to learn - the only reason it is difficult to learn is because of mean native speakers and few resources, on top of that even the more helpful Icelanders are not usually so helpful and it seems like any foreigner who ever actually learns Icelandic well never helps out other learners after that (there is a huge "I suffered through this and so you must suffer through it too since I managed" thing I have noticed, instead of a "I suffered through it and I wish I didn't have to so I will help others so they don't have to either"). You cannot exactly go onto youtube and search "pokemon Icelandic" and find episodes, or find flashgames or facebook games in it, or even many Icelandic movies that also have subs in Icelandic, like you can with ex. Swedish, those kinds of things being a gigantic help when learning. Not to mention, even many sites that actually do sell useful stuff (maybe books or music) require either an Icelandic social security number or sometimes even an Icelandic bank account in order to buy them, which you will only have if you have lived in the country. If I can at least improve the amount or quality of the resources for Icelandic (and I know how expensive materials for learning Icelandic are even when you are IN Iceland, it's threefold if you live outside of it), thanks to that there will be more learners and more learners learning faster, and then maybe Icelanders will actually get used to learners and become a lot nicer about their language with us, since they will come across so often (Icelanders also often think something which seems to be "no foreigner will ever be able to become fluent in Icelandic so why bother correcting them or talking to them in it since it is useless anyway"). If we can get more and more learners thanks to material that makes it easier and cheaper to learn, the average Icelander will meet more of us and eventually more and more of us will be fluent too... Last but not least, I have never in my life had an English translation, an Icelandic text, and audio that matches the Icelandic text all at once - I have only thrice even had Icelandic audio (not songs) that matched Icelandic text, and most of that was short (one was only even a paragraph). So these would be really good for myself too. The reason why I think it is not sufficient to just read the Icelandic and original Sherlock Holmes side-by-side for beginners is because the Icelandic actually often rewords things quite a lot, adds things that weren't there before, or even totally skips stuff and summarizes it (or just totally skips it!) instead in translations. Edited by kaptengröt on 12 January 2013 at 3:18am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5161 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 63 of 76 12 January 2013 at 10:48am | IP Logged | ||
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Regarding format, once you have electronic texts split and aligned in a 'table' of sorts it's pretty much trivial to rearrange cells one way or another on demand to satisfy the end users' preferences. Edited by mrwarper on 12 January 2013 at 10:48am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4642 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 64 of 76 12 January 2013 at 11:08am | IP Logged | ||
Not the experience I had in Iceland. I only stayed there for two weeks, so my Icelandic never got past phrasebook level, but whenever I did say something in Icelandic, people basically brightened up a huge amount with a look of "you know Icelandic??? wtf???" and then I had to explain that that was all I knew, or I continued in English. When I went to the supermarket and did stuff in Icelandic the counter girl responded in Icelandic; and she looked a bit disappointed when she had to clarify in English. I think this is partly an attitude because I have never in my life had trouble speaking with other people in their native language no matter which language I was learning. There are one or two people who will do the battle with you, but by and large, whether I was speaking Russian, Swedish, French or German (or Icelandic, Greek, Czech, Romanian, Hebrew, whatever I have some phrasebook knowledge of) it has been received excellently by everyone I have ever spoken to. No matter whether they were Scandinavian or Asian or Latin American. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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