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Questions Regarding Arabic | ||
Tags: Choosing a Language | Arabic | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| translator2 Senior Member United States Joined 6911 days ago 848 posts - 1862 votes  Speaks: English* | Message 17 of 93 03 December 2011 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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Thanks Humdereel! Edited by translator2 on 03 December 2011 at 4:00pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Fortwenster Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4977 days ago 24 posts - 36 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchC1 Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 18 of 93 03 December 2011 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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I know Humdereel has ansred some questions, but Id like to add something about the dialects stuff:
They are definitely one language, because different languages require a translator or interpreter to communicate properly, while the dialects dont. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 19 of 93 03 December 2011 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | ||
It's not that simple. As mentioned earlier, the definition of languages and dialects isn't exactly rigid. Czech and Slovak are quite intelligible, but they're not considered dialects of one language, but two separate languages. Look at others, as well: Swedish and Norwegian, Slavic languages in what was previously Yugoslavia, Bulgarian and Macedonian, and to some extent, Spanish-Portuguese-Italian as well. In many cases, these languages don't require speakers from each to use an interpreter to understand each other. If Czech and Slovak are languages, then Egyptian and Levantine -- although not very distant -- could also be considered different languages. The fact is that whether or not something is called a "language" or a "dialect" is based on many factors; not only linguistic similarities, but also the political, cultural, and/or ethnic view of the languages. I think the main reason why Arabic is considered one language, even with some dialects (such as Maghrebi and Iraqi) that are unintelligible , is that Arabs feel like one people, and cultural unity is taken very seriously. The main flaw people make when describing Arabic as "several different languages" is that they sometime use bad examples. If they use Spanish and Portuguese, or Czech and Slovak, for example, they're not too far-fetched. However, if they say it's like Latin, Spanish, and French, or English and German or Russian and German, THEN, it is exaggerated. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| SmilingStraw Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4902 days ago 35 posts - 37 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 20 of 93 04 December 2011 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've been studying MSA for two hours a week since early February of this year, and I must say that I am sometimes disappointed by the language.
A fact: Don't learn MSA unless you're a Muslim or interested in Islam. It's useless in the real world and it has nothing to do with Arabic spoken on the streets. With it, you can read the Qur'an and listen to the news, and that's it. I am almost entirely convinced that in order to learn "Arabic", you have to learn almost ten languages: -Egyptian -Levantine -Maghrebi -Sudanese -Iraqi -Gulf -Yemeni -MSA -Classical I'm not sure if it's worth it anymore. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 21 of 93 04 December 2011 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | ||
I disagree with many of these things listed. With all due respect, having studied only two hours a week for just a year doesn't make any of your points more valid. First off, I highly disagree with "the fact" that MSA is only for those interested in Islam. The idea that all you can do with MSA or Classical Arabic is "read the Qur'an and listen to news" is invalid, from my experience. There's a treasure trove of literature and other works that don't deal deeply with Islam but are an integral part of Arab culture. Arabic is much more than just the Holy Qur'an. In addition, as it's already been mentioned, MSA is very useful as a foundation to explore the various dialects, even the more divergent Maghrebi variant. As for Arabic like learning "ten languages", I'm not sure if you're the most qualified to state such a thing, again. It's understandable if one says it feels like learning 2, or even 3 or 4 very closely related languages, but saying that each one is that divided is exaggerated, at least in the way it was put. EDIT: Of course, if you don't care at all about the literary or historical aspect of Arab culture, then it's understandable if you don't feel all too interested in MSA. However, it's wrong to go around stating that only Muslims could have a reason for learning it. Edited by Humdereel on 04 December 2011 at 10:55pm 11 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| SmilingStraw Diglot Newbie United States Joined 4902 days ago 35 posts - 37 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 22 of 93 05 December 2011 at 12:34am | IP Logged | ||
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Sorry, I was unaware of that. I knew there was other literature, Iguess I was just in an irritable mood.
However, I think it's frustrating that MSA has absolutely nothing to do with the dialects. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kanewai Triglot Senior Member United States justpaste.it/kanewai Joined 4881 days ago 1386 posts - 3054 votes Speaks: English*, French, Marshallese Studies: Italian, Spanish | Message 23 of 93 05 December 2011 at 12:48am | IP Logged | ||
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Hey Humdereel - I've been there, and thrown my hands up in complete frustration at least
twice, thinking "what's the point?" And I don't know what the right approach is. Right now I'm focusing on MSA; I figure learning to read the newspaper would be a pretty big accomplishment. And I picture spoken and written Arabic to be more like the spokes of the wheel than ten (or however) separate languages. As in, if I learn enough basic MSA, I hope that I can easily and quickly branch out to Egyptian, Maghrebi, or Levantine with just a bit of extra study. I hope that's the case, at least! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Humdereel Octoglot Groupie United States Joined 4970 days ago 90 posts - 349 votes Speaks: English, Spanish*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Written), Turkish, Persian, Urdu Studies: Russian | Message 24 of 93 05 December 2011 at 1:09am | IP Logged | ||
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@SmilingStraw: Saying that MSA has absolutely nothing to do with MSA is also off. Man, if that were the case, I and some others would not constantly be blurting, "MSA first, then dialects" as the most accepted effective approach. While there are definitely some notable differences between MSA and the various dialects, there are also many commonalities.
@kanewai: I understand your frustration. I think that that's a feeling that almost every Arabic student experiences when they're unsure whether or not their learning of MSA will actually help. It also happens when they start learning there first dialect. I myself within my early years of Arabic would sometimes have these moments. As for how easy the dialects are after MSA, it depends on several factors, but I wouldn't call going from MSA to your first dialect as "easy." It's definitely very accessible, but it's not something you can pick up after a few days or weeks, or sometimes months to a proficient level. It still takes time and dedication, the difference being that exposure is more important than having to learn grammatical rules and whatnot. I would describe dialects as "generally much easier" but not "easy right off the bat." One of the other factors that affects the difficulty of the dialects is that there aren't many solid materials for them. If there was more, it would indeed ease the transition. At times, you might feel that MSA and a dialect are different languages. But with time, you start seeing how it all ties in. When I first started working on Egyptian Arabic, I thought, "Crap, several words change", but after practice and exposure and time, that changed to "It makes much more sense to me now!" Arabic is challenging and can be frustrating as any other language, especially because of the diglossia, but I found it to be an incredible language. I don't regret a moment spent with it. :-) 11 persons have voted this message useful |
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