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Ending up disliking a TL and its culture | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| cathrynm Senior Member United States junglevision.co Joined 6130 days ago 910 posts - 1232 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Finnish | Message 73 of 84 05 March 2012 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
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For me, actually, as kind of a minitory-like person living in the USA, I take evil pleasure in reading about white guys who go to Japan and then are frustrated about 'not fitting in.' All I can say is "welcome to my world." This is just what being a racial minority is like, I think possibly anywhere on the planet. People judge you based on your race or your ethnicity or what the government of your ancestors has done in the last 50 years. Just get used to it, that's all you can do. Edited by cathrynm on 05 March 2012 at 7:30pm 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| benzionisrael Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4670 days ago 79 posts - 142 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, SpanishB2 | Message 74 of 84 05 March 2012 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | |||||
While what to say is mostly true, the extent of a foreigner's inability to fit in or the degree of prejudice which he/she receives varies drastically depending on the country. Having been a foreign resident of Japan, and currently being a foreign resident of Spain, I can tell you that first hand. Some Asians point out their lack of integration into western culture, but I can tell you with certainty that the Asians in the UK where I used to live had a much easier time intergrating into British society than Caucasians intergrating into Japanese society. By the way, after living there some time, I am used to it. But that doesn't mean I have to like it! Edited by benzionisrael on 05 March 2012 at 7:45pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Wulfgar Senior Member United States Joined 4676 days ago 404 posts - 791 votes Speaks: English* | Message 75 of 84 05 March 2012 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
It's ok with me. By the way, your English is pretty good. What's your mother tongue? I disagree with most of what you said. But I have never worked in Japan, or lived in Japan for a period of over 3 months at a time, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I have been very well received. Despite of what some have posted here, I don't believe there is a lot of secret hostility towards foreigners. Sure there is bound to be some, but no more most other places I've been. And to be perfectly honest, they are so polite to me, I just don't care if people I don't know are afraid of the way I look. I have made some deep friendships over the years, and I know these people are sincere. Just like most other places. For people I don't know, I have two things going against me. 1) I don't look like them 2) My language skills are far from perfect. This is especially important due to politeness levels. For example, being overly polite all the time is not good - you actually need to use the correct politeness levels to be truly accepted. When you think about it, it just makes sense. Don't call a little kid "sir" and don't call your boss "dude" if you want to be accepted into a society. Of course, it's much more complicated than that, and therein lies the problem. I agree that it will be easier for you to fit in in Spain, because (I assume) your don't have these to worry about. 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| benzionisrael Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4670 days ago 79 posts - 142 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, SpanishB2 | Message 76 of 84 05 March 2012 at 7:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
My native language is as stated in my profile and so it is bound to be good. I just use americanized spellings like americanized instead of americanised, not because I like the USA, but because I believe american spellings of the English language to be superior. Back to the original topic, I have much less time living in the Spanish speaking world than in Japan. I have a significantly greater knowledge of Japanese than Spanish. At least in my case it has little to do with language proficiency, but rather ethnic differences and the host nations' attitudes towards foreigners. Edited by benzionisrael on 05 March 2012 at 8:05pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5339 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 77 of 84 05 March 2012 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
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So many memories, good and bad, raced through my head while I was reading through this thread, that I could have written a whole novel. I’ll try to limit it to a (very long) short story.
Yes, I have been put off a culture after studying it and spending time in the country, and it took me many years to recover from the experience, and actually start accepting the culture again. Some of those things were related to the country and people themselves. Some were more or less unrelated. It was the year 1976. I was 14 years old, and had just been sent to France to learn French. I was so eager, so excited, and so happy to become a part of this wonderful sophisticated country full of polite people, who kissed, and said “Oui, madame”. And it all turned to ashes in my mouth. My first experience was on the railway station in Orleans, where I was to meet my host family. They did not say “Welcome”, or “Nice to see you”. They demanded to see my travel insurance, before they would even move from the railway station. My mother had told me to put it together with my tickets and my money in a little pouch under my clothes, and 36 years down the road I can still remember my embarrassment of having to take it out at an open railway station with people watching, and my host mother studying the wording of the travel insurance eagerly before we left the station. I had 3 horrible weeks in their home, where I was treated with more contempt than I have ever had in my life. I was not pretty enough, slim enough, or spoke enough French. I was a total disappointment to them, and they threw me out even before my mom had the time to transfer the money. They therefore confiscated some of my clothes, my coat, my best dress. I was humiliated beyond words. At school I was the only one who did not speak French, and in the beginning some of the boys were so mean to me, and did everything they could to make me say inappropriate things in French, since I did not understand the language. Fortunately most of the girls were really nice, and practically fought to sit next to me, or have lunch with me. However it did not happen a single time during the year that I was there that one of them invited me home, or suggested that we do something after school or in the week end. I who was used to spending time with my friends most evenings, felt isolated, alone, and like an outcast, and I spent all my evenings at home in front of the TV. And then it was the men, which were an unknown challenge. I had grown up on a very peaceful peninsula, 100 kilometres south of Oslo, were you were supposed to say hello, and smile to every man, woman and child who passed on the street. Boys were just barely starting to register on my radar, and as Norwegians are not exactly great at giving compliments, that was not something I knew how to handle. In France I was living in an area with a lot of single Arabs, and I very quickly learned to live my life with my eyes downcast, as I would get into trouble every time I looked up and my eyes crossed those of a man. I had so many incidents of fully grown men who would follow me for a long time on the street, and shout things to me, or try to talk to me, until I was so scared and confused that I would hammer on the door of complete strangers, and beg them in tears to let me in. And when after what felt like an eternity, the individual pursuing me was still there, outside the door, I had to ask the man of the house to take me home. For a shy girl speaking very little French, that felt like the ultimate agony. To their credit, I always got help. And then I would get scolded for coming home late, of course. And people would be so rude to me in shops. The saleswomen followed me around, as if they expected me to steal something the moment I came in the door, and when I wanted to buy something they wouldn’t help me, because my French was so bad. I was used to everyone treating me with trust and confidence at home, and since I was such a happy, smiling kid, everyone was smiling back to me, and in France I felt like I was treated like dirt. I lived next to the Loire, and it is a miracle that I did not end up in it, I was so miserable. I also did not want my mother to know how utterly and devastatingly unhappy I was, because she had made such sacrifices to send me there. The irony of course, was that once I became fluent in French, the exact same people that had been incredibly mean to me, would be as friendly as could be. So yes, I know what it is like to be put off a target language culture. However, since there were some people who were really nice to me, it made me not hate the country altogether. I have a love/hate relationship to it, though. Those childhood memories will probably make it impossible for me to ever totally embrace the culture, like I have in Spain, in Italy and in Greece. I love those three place, and I probably always will. As for Russia, I do not have enough experience to make broad statements, what little experience I have match Fabriziocarrero’s. I do however have a little more experience with the Ukraine, and I suspect that the two cultures are fairly similar, so that what I have seen in the Ukraine may very well be valid for Russia as well. I too have noticed that young people in general seem to be friendlier, but I have noticed one factor which is even more important than age, and that is the perception of having a bit of power. Most people I met behind a counter, a receptionist, a worker at the metro, a bank clerk, a saleswoman, would all be unfriendly or indifferent or even hostile. The people I met in the street or that I met in private settings would generally be very friendly and helpful. I often had to stop people on the street to ask for directions, and even with my heart wrenchingly awful Russian, they would do their best to help or explain, and even take me some of the way, tell me their life story (of which I understood very little) or draw me a little map. And in these encounters age did not matter, in fact the elderly women could be just as helpful as the young, once they realized that I was doing my best to communicate in Russian. In private setting, where I met people through friends, they would also be just as open, and playful and warm as any Westerner, or even warmer in fact. Some of our very best friends are Ukrainian, and both I and the kids have been taken into their home, and been treated like family. And we also have to keep in mind, that Russians that are middle aged or older, grew up in a time where it could be dangerous to talk to foreigners. And if I still live with the vivid image of French saleswomen being rude to me when I was a girl, it is understandable that some of the people, who lived under a harder regime, still are a bit scared, and turn that into hostility. 11 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Hekje Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4708 days ago 842 posts - 1330 votes Speaks: English*, Dutch Studies: French, Indonesian | Message 78 of 84 05 March 2012 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My $0.02 on the topic:
I find the OP's judgment call on the inherent goodness or badness of a culture rather troubling: i.e., that Japanese culture is inherently bad, and that Latin American culture is objectively better (this from the other thread on picking up girls). What seems especially problematic is how the OP is theorizing on the capacity of Japanese people to form genuine friendships and possess real emotional depth. Each culture expresses affection differently, but the people of every culture have and exercise a capacity for affection. This is pretty self-evident. Implying otherwise comes off as illogical at best and dehumanizing at worst. It's also dangerous, I think, to ascribe too much weight to ethnic heritage when discussing cultural integration - especially because ethnic heritage and cultural background are not synonymous. (For example, I am of partial Asian descent but doubt I'd have an easy time adjusting to Japanese behavioral norms.) Put another way: OP, do you think you enjoy Latin American society more 1) because your personality is more compatible with that culture's behavioral norms, or 2) because you are not Asian? 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| benzionisrael Triglot Groupie Spain Joined 4670 days ago 79 posts - 142 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, SpanishB2 | Message 79 of 84 05 March 2012 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
With all due respect, I think you have interpreted what I have written too far from what I wanted to express. In your post I see much information which I have not even written and it seems you would like to represent that information as my views on the subject. I have never stated that I think that Asian or Japanese culture is inherently bad nor have I explicitly written that Latinamerican culture is inherently superior. Neither do I believe that Japanese people or any people for the fact of the matter don't possess emotional depth. I just believe that in general people of the Hispanic world and southern Europe are more open and welcoming, and for that reason I love and respect their cultures whereas the comparative exclusiveness of east Asian culture (in my case Japan) has led me to lose interest in those cultures and at times even to feel a sentiment of dislike towards certain societies. Responding to your second point, I think in Japan one's ethnicity has a highly significant impact on how one is treated. The professor of Japanese studied cited in this thread also mentioned this point in detail. My non-Japanese Asian friends in Japan were almost always treated normal in Japan. However, a non-Asian person in Japan will inevitably run into strange treatment from time to time. A typical example is being spoken to like a child or met with strings of mangled broken English mixed with Japanese by incredulous and condescending "JTHFF" (Japanese too hard for foreigners) types. On the other hand I had Asian friends who had a lower level of Japanese than me, but were always received normally just like anyone else. As a foreign resident of Japan, I was always amazed by the degree of ignorance of a sizable minority of people regarding their treatment of foreigners. As a response to your final question, I believe that I like Latinamerican society more than Asian culture because it is a much more open and friendly society. I find Latinamerican culture really attractive but then again I also find many aspects of Asian culture attractive and impresive. Believe it or not, there are actually some things of Japan which I actually like. But I was just disappointed with the society because of difficulties regarding intergration, mostly because of the way the japanese in general view and treat foreigners. If full intergration into Japanese society was possible, I think life there would be much more pleasant and considerably more fun. Therefore, I believe my answer to your question is closer to option number 2. Edited by benzionisrael on 05 March 2012 at 11:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4673 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 80 of 84 06 March 2012 at 12:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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But the Latin American culture is like a double-edged sword:
1. people are easy to make friends with 2. people on the streets are helpful and everyone talks to everyone 3. but many friendships are shallow and based on interest 4. being informal and on friendly terms with everyone means, you can get robbed quite easily; 1st time I returned to Europe from Brazil, I realized many things I had bought (CDs, books) were missing...A year later I found them at my friends' home. They simply took them from my zipped bags and confiscated them. This is very very impolite! I never ever returned to these people. I simply disappeared afterward. So, I 'm kinda more into Norwegian approach. People seem cold and distant at first. But when you get to know them, they are friends for good. But even when you're close friends with them, they give you enough room for your privacy and discretion. Furthermore, many people in Latin America treat us Europeans like cash cows. Last year I made a comment: Oh my God, everything is so expensive here in Brazil. Some things are more expensive than they are in Norway. And the reply I got was: well, then you should not have come here in the first place. Sometimes, I asked them ''how do you say this in Portuguese. and the answer was ''If you want to know, enroll a language course here''. This was very, very rude. In Latin America you have to lie in order to get accepted. Well, the reality is, in Brazil you pay big bucks for lousy service. I'm okay with paying 150 euros for a 3 star hotel room in Norway, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say I'm okay with paying the same price for the same thing in Brazil, since the service is nowhere near as good. Some things, that I've heard over and over again; in Brazil: ''Brazil is the best country in the world'' (by Brazilians who have never visited any other country) in Argentina: ''We are not like Latin Americans, we are European'' ;) My advice: when you go to Brazil, make sure you go to Northeast (Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza) and not Rio or São Paulo. In Northeast, people are more polite, more humble and not rude as in the South. Edited by Medulin on 06 March 2012 at 12:39am 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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