Ending up disliking a TL and its culture (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Ending up disliking a TL and its culture
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vonPeterhof
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Message 33 of 84

18 February 2012 at 2:18pm | IP Logged

Lucky Charms wrote:

I agree about big cities. Many of the negative stereotypes about Japan come from Tokyo,
which is a separate world from the rest of Japan and can be hard to live in even for many
Japanese.

In the Borat movie, whenever Borat tries to give a friendly greeting to someone in New
York he's met with rudeness and hostility. One man even breaks into a run to
escape! I was really shocked when I watched this, and I thought 1) damn, New York is
scary, and 2) I would hate for people in other countries to judge the U.S. by
these people.

Having spent most of my life in big(ish) cities (Saint Petersburg, Russia,~5mil people; Almaty, Kazakhstan,~1.5 mil people), while I can't exactly empathize with outright rudeness and hostility, I can certainly relate to being wary of overly friendly strangers, to the point of wanting to run away. And no, this has nothing to do with my dislike of Borat ;) Generally, the only strangers who ever bothered greeting me in a friendly manner out in the street were trying to either sell me something or con/mug me (one actually succeeded at the latter, back when I was 13). Under these circumstances avoiding contact with strangers becomes common sense - Dunbar's number/monkeysphere and all that.

Serpent wrote:

BTW have you been to St Petersburg? They like claiming they're more polite than us Muscovites - and the city itself is certainly calmer :-)

We certainly do like claiming that ;) In reality, I'm not entirely sure. During my admittedly few visits to Moscow I failed to notice any fundamental difference in people's attitudes/interpersonal relations, unlike during my stays in Western countries. Although the older folks around here like ranting about the decline in our great city's culture and manners ("Back in my day whenever an elderly person entered a bus half the passengers would immediately rise to give up their seat!"), so maybe it wasn't always like this. And of course, football ultras and гопники are the same wherever you go.
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fabriciocarraro
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Message 34 of 84

18 February 2012 at 2:25pm | IP Logged

@vonPeterhof, @Serpent, @espejismo, @Марк

I didn't mean to offend any of you Russians at all, I'm sorry if any of you took it that way, I hope not! I was just telling my own experience while in Russia, and why it was somewhat disappointing for me.
But anyway, I'll be going back a lot since my in-laws live there, probably this december. =)
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Itikar
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Italy
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Message 35 of 84

18 February 2012 at 2:45pm | IP Logged

Everything wrote:

Could you tell us more about it ? Do you mean you first disliked French attitude then you finally changed your mind or something like that ?

I can surmize that in Italy there are some stereotypes about the French, that are similiar to the ones normally famous abroad. But they seem even odder due to the many similiarities the two country share. On top of that add that the places in France most visited by Italians are Paris, Côte d'Azur and to a lesser extent Corsica. And renowned touristic destinations are not famous to host welcoming people, even in my country. To this add also that those Italians who often speak about France and show off their French are among the most snob people you can meet and "the dish is served".

Studying the language indipendently, and knowing several French I started to see indeed a lot of common elements between the French and the Italians. Not just in the languages but also in history, culture, habits, proverbs and way of living.
At least I speak about Northern Italy, where I live, and of Tuscany where I trace my ancestry. Other parts of Italy may have less links.
I also discovered that in France being polite is a very beautiful and widespread habit, and I learnt to like this a lot. :)
I also discovered that there are indeed many French who like Italy and its culture and who have a positive attitude towards Italians. Just to make you understand I have met at least so many French who were able to speak Italian, as so many French who spoke English. :)

drp9341 wrote:

BUT the problem was, aside from all of the people who knew me, directly or indirectly as "Il Americano" people

Maybe "L'americano". :P Anyway I don't know about which part of Italy you speak about, because people's behaviour can change a lot from a region to the other, but in general Italians tend to be a bit "chimaeric". So Italy happens to be both a Philo-American country and an Anti-American country at the same time!!! And I think this dicotomy reflects also in the behaviour towards Americans. When dealing with Italians take into consideration these points:
-English natural speech intonation, if used when speaking Italian, sounds a bit naive and unreasonably happy. And especially the American one seems so. Also Italian language has a strong speech intonation, but it is used in a slightly different manner. My suggestion is to start focusing on this element if you want to improve your Italian and your interactions. :)
-Italians don't tell things directly so often. So if you do or say something wrong they will be elusive or disappointed, but they won't tell you why. And we do this much more than Americans. Unless you said or did something VERY wrong.
-Though Italians can be often very talkative and outgoing, asking about personal things is generally a no-trespass zone. A direct question about one's personal life or habits is considered rude. So avoid it and be less direct, allowing your interlocutor to choose if she wants to speak about herself or not. She will probably be pleased to do so.
-Italians often say a thing to mean exactly the opposite. And we are so accustomed to this that we do it also with foreigners. So when receiving a present from you, even if the recipient is very grateful, she will probably say "Thank you, but you didn't have to disturb for me", that usually means "Thank you very much, I am really very happy of this present". To explain this "polite" habit, and the difference with Americans, old people tell often of the end of WWII. At that time people were very hungry, but when the average American soldier offered them chocolate or food, even if they were almost starving, they always answered the first time: "It's very kind, but you didn't have to disturb" and they got no chocolate at all. :P So grandma says that the next soldier she met she learnt to answer him "Oh yes, thank you very much. I like chocolate".

Maybe these things are not restricted only to Italians, or they are not valid for every part of Italy; yet I have seen these differences in dealing with Americans and other foreigners. In general we have this behaviour, because doing differently seems us rude. You are free to think Italians are bizarre.
But if we were not bizarre, we would not be called Italians.

And just to say something good about Russians I will say that in my experience, if one looks deeper than facial expression, they are much more friendly and open than the average North-Italian.
Just to give the idea I remember that when I was a teenager I changed school going in a nearby town, and after some time the teachers complimented me because "I was clever to get integrated in my new class ONLY in three months" Other students took much more time. o_o

Edited by Itikar on 18 February 2012 at 6:33pm
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fabriciocarraro
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Message 36 of 84

18 February 2012 at 3:31pm | IP Logged

Itikar wrote:

-Italians often say a thing to mean exactly the opposite. And we are so accustomed to this that we do it also with foreigners. So when receiving a present from you, even if the recipient is very grateful, she will probably say "Thank you, but you didn't have to disturb for me", that usually means "Thank you very much, I am really very happy of this present". To explain this "polite" habit, and the difference with Americans, old people tell often of the end of WWII. At that time people were very hungry, but when the average American soldier offered them chocolate or food, even if they were almost starving, they always answered the first time: "It's very kind, but you didn't have to disturb" and they got no chocolate at all. :P So grandma says that the next soldier she met she learnt to answer him "Oh yes, thank you very much. I like chocolate".

We do EXACTLY the same here in Brazil ahahaha "Ai, não precisava! Obrigado!" ("Oh, you didn't have to! Thank you!"). It's funny to know =)
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vonPeterhof
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Message 37 of 84

18 February 2012 at 3:46pm | IP Logged

fabriciocarraro wrote:

Well, I for one didn't find anything in your posts offensive or disagreeable (but then, I'm not exactly what you would call a patriot). In fact, if I ever met a foreigner who had found absolutely nothing to dislike about Russia after living here for a while we probably wouldn't have much to talk about:)
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GeneMachine
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Message 38 of 84

18 February 2012 at 4:31pm | IP Logged

Being a patriot doesn't mean not finding anything to dislike about your country, after all. I mean, anyone who would not find the slightest bit to disagree with must live in a very peculiar kind of reality distortion field. If you'd visit me in Germany, you'd find me ranting about certain aspects of our culture, too. I still like the place.
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vonPeterhof
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Message 39 of 84

18 February 2012 at 5:06pm | IP Logged

GeneMachine wrote:

I know what being a patriot is, and I'm not saying that everyone who likes the place they happen to be from does so completely uncritically. All I'm saying is that I'm not one, not even in that word's most benign sense. In my previous post I wanted to write instead that I have a bit of a cultural cringe, but that would imply that there's some foreign culture that I blindly worship at the expense of that of Russia.

Also, there is a certain kind of Russian patriot who can't stand hearing criticism of Russian society and culture from foreigners, often deflecting it by pointing out flaws in the critic's own society (tu quoque, or, as we call it, the "And you are lynching Negroes" argument). These people are the ones most likely to take offence at fabriciocarraro's posts, so I wanted to show that not all of us are like this.
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GeneMachine
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Message 40 of 84

18 February 2012 at 5:14pm | IP Logged

I understood you, VonPeterhof - no offense meant. It is basically the same around here. I just wanted to say that I still have to find a culture that I completely like as well as a culture I completely dislike. There is no such thing. Of course, for a German, the whole "patriotism" thing has an additional level of complication - sure, I like my country, I like the culture - I am also aware of a huge historical burden there...

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