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Ending up disliking a TL and its culture | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| palfrey Senior Member Canada Joined 5275 days ago 81 posts - 180 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, French | Message 57 of 84 24 February 2012 at 1:16am | IP Logged | ||
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I don't have firsthand experience of Japanese society. But I have read some accounts, and they appear to support Kanewai's statement, at least up to the recent past.
One book in particular is worth noting (it is still in print): The Japanese Today: Change and Continuity, 2nd ed. by Edwin O. Reischauer and Marius B. Jansen Reischauer (1910-1990) was born and raised in Japan, speaking both Japanese and English (lucky him!), and went on to become a scholar of Japanese studies at Harvard. He also served as U.S. ambassador to Japan from 1961 to 1966. He seems to have been highly regarded by the Japanese, who even sent a television crew to cover his farewell speech at Harvard in 1981. As well, after his first wife died, his second wife was a Japanese woman (who, it turned out, had had a secret crush on him back in Tokyo when they were both high school students). So this was not someone who was a Japan-phobe, or who could not speak the language, or who suffered from culture shock. Indeed, the main criticism in some of the Amazon reviews is that he has painted too rosy a picture of Japanese society. Yet even he felt compelled to mention the difficulty faced by foreigners in trying to fit into Japanese society. In his book, after discussing some of the problems that non-Japanese Asians have had, he continues (pp. 399-400):
Maybe attitudes are finally starting to change in Japan. And that would be a good thing, of course. But based on what Reischauer has written, I believe there may be some truth in what benzionisrael has written in his original post. Dismissing his experiences with a simple "the problem lies with you" does not seem entirely fair. 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lucky Charms Diglot Senior Member Japan lapacifica.net Joined 6951 days ago 752 posts - 1711 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: German, Spanish | Message 58 of 84 24 February 2012 at 6:49am | IP Logged | ||
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Just to be clear, I agreed with kanewai's post (and voted him up for it), but I wanted
to introduce an opposing point of view because I think the reality is not so black-and- white as "foreigners will always be outsiders in Japan", "foreigners can assimilate in America and become completely American". I think the gap, in reality, is much smaller than that. The problems with the way non-Japanese are viewed in Japan certainly should not be swept under the rug, but they should not be exaggerated and held as an example of how the U.S. is so far ahead when it comes to race relations, either. In fact, the common wisdom surrounding Japan's alleged xenophobia reminds me of the allegations that Japanese is the most difficult language on Earth: sure, nobody can argue that an English learner will learn it as quickly as he'd learn a Romance language, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reputation it has, so in any thread discussing how impossibly difficult Japanese is, I'll always jump in to argue for how surprisingly easy it is :) I do remember sometimes feeling (unintentionally) condescended to when I first came here (people being too impressed that I could use chopsticks, laughing a little too hard when I used a slang word they didn't expect me to know, etc.), but now I'm hardly ever made to feel like an outsider at all, and people often tell me they forget I'm not Japanese when they talk to me (which I suppose might suggest that they would normally talk to foreigners differently... but at least this shows that it's not impossible for a foreigner to break past this barrier). I think fluency in the language and cultural understanding are the biggest factors here. Maybe most expats in Japan give up before they get to that point, assuming they will never be fully accepted no matter how hard they try. This is also purely anecdotal, but I have a friend from Peru who moved to Japan with his family when he was 7 and his sister was 11. Like Mr. Reischauer above, the two are foreigners in appearance, but their speech and mannerisms are indistinguishable from any other Japanese. When my friend meets new Japanese people, at first they can't get past the idea that he's "from Peru" and are not sure how to treat him (e.g. they'll compliment him on his accent, be impressed that he can speak in the local dialect, and ask him all sorts of questions about life in Peru.... even though they've already been told that he's been living here for most of his conscious memory). Then, a minute or two into the conversation, a light bulb will go off and the person will say, "So you're basically Japanese, aren't you?" and after that his ethnicity becomes a non-issue. To a lesser extent, the same thing happens to me: I'll get a minute of shock and disbelief and oohing and aahing, and then suddenly they'll realize, "wait, I can just talk to you like a regular Japanese person, huh?" and that's the end of that. So it's true that foreigners can be held at arm's length (because they're unfortunately assumed to have zero knowledge of the language and culture), but not true that they are doomed by their DNA to the "outsider treatment" for life. I would really like to hear what the experiences of other long-term residents of Japan have been, though! (I'll be conducting an informal survey on my facebook wall as well!) Edited by Lucky Charms on 24 February 2012 at 7:09am 8 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| vonPeterhof Tetraglot Senior Member Russian FederationRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4774 days ago 715 posts - 1527 votes Speaks: Russian*, EnglishC2, Japanese, German Studies: Kazakh, Korean, Norwegian, Turkish | Message 59 of 84 24 February 2012 at 7:26am | IP Logged | ||
Edited by vonPeterhof on 24 February 2012 at 7:27am 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| TixhiiDon Tetraglot Senior Member Japan Joined 5466 days ago 772 posts - 1474 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese, German, Russian Studies: Georgian | Message 60 of 84 24 February 2012 at 9:51am | IP Logged | ||
I think what tends to happen is that it's all too easy to remember the occasions when you are treated as an outsider or condescended to, whereas the numerous conversations you have every day that go completely smoothly, without any suggestion that your Japanese conversation partner is in any way uncomfortable, tend to be forgotten simply because they are so routine. I've found the thing about being treated suspiciously when your Japanese is too good to be a myth. I can't recall a single occasion when my Japanese proficiency has made a Japanese person uncomfortable or hostile. Maybe my Japanese just isn't as good as I think it is :) What I do find particularly irritating is when I get condescending comments or xenophobic treatment from Japanese people who have themselves lived and worked abroad and know other languages. It's as if they can't relate their own experiences to those of foreigners living in Japan. Two anecdotes spring to mind. Once at a gathering of people interested in Georgia a woman who had just come back from two years in Tbilisi was amazed I knew the word 胸焼 け, meaning "heartburn". Why would I not know that word among the many other words I know in Japanese? Another, rather more unpleasant, experience was when I was let into a bar with my Japanese friends only after the bar manager had confirmed that I could speak Japanese. What bugged me even more though was that after a while the same bar manager started talking about his experiences living in America! I didn't say anything, but I would have bet my life he didn't have to prove his English skills to get into any bars during his time in the states. As I said at first, though, these incidents stick in my mind precisely because they riled me. All the other boring interactions when the person I was talking to couldn't have cared less where I was from get lost in the bustle of everyday life. It is also, I think, extremely important to remember that no matter how xenophobic you think Japan may be, you will never, and I really mean never, be beaten up on the street or shot and killed in Japan purely because of your race. And there aren't many countries in the world that can make such a claim. Edited by TixhiiDon on 24 February 2012 at 10:12am 18 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| crafedog Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5820 days ago 166 posts - 337 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Korean, Tok Pisin, French | Message 61 of 84 28 February 2012 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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An interesting topic. It disappoints me to see the knee jerk reactions of some people.
He's entitled to his own opinion regardless of how unpleasant/undeserved you may feel his opinion is or how it contrasts with your own opinion. It's not like he started a topic called "The many reasons I hate Japanese culture and its people are...". That would deserve contempt. He was just asking if a dislike of a culture has put you off a language you know/knew/previously had enjoyed. I've wondered about this problem in the past. I live in South Korea and I knew very little of Korea before I came here. I had no preconceptions of the country/culture/language before I came but I experienced massive culture shock in my first 5-7 months here. Overall though, I've met some of the nicest people and some of the worst people in my life in Korea. Same for my experiences living in England and America. In a way though, I do feel that your feeling of the culture of your TL/seeing the TL used in real life can put you off the TL itself (which is what this topic was about before everyone decided to hop on a high horse and call the topic starter an ignorant **** because of his opinion). Korean sounds much nicer in a kdrama or in kpop than it does from a whinging princess on her phone at 3 in the morning or from a drunk ajusshi screaming at his wife/you. Don't forget the professor had a problem with Mandarin when he went to Singapore. Seeing Mandarin used in simple ways (like taxi fares and menus) as opposed to more exotic ways (classic poems and stories) took away the desire of the language for him. Why? A driving reason for someone to learn a language is based on what he/she associates the language with. With kpop or princesses? With Japanese anime or speaking to someone you don't like? With an attractive person/culture or with your nightmare neighbours? For the topic starter, his 'drive' was most likely because of a prior fondness for Japan/Japanese culture. Due to his bad experiences with the country/culture, he's lost his love for the language and his feelings for it. That was all he wanted to say. I have heard of Koreans who have had this experience in England. They have a high/misguided view of England/its people because of people like Hugh Grant and Prince William but I can tell you that in my little hometown we certainly weren't full of Hugh Grants and Princes (we had plenty of chavs to spare). If someone from another language/culture stayed in my town for a while and ended up hating the language and culture they associated it with then I certainly wouldn't blame them for that feeling. Edited by crafedog on 28 February 2012 at 12:40pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Ojorolla Diglot Groupie France Joined 4967 days ago 90 posts - 130 votes Speaks: French*, English | Message 62 of 84 28 February 2012 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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A blog that may be interesting to some people :
http://www.whyjapansucks.blogspot.com/ The author is married to a Japanese woman, living in Japan. He seems to feel more or less the same way as the topic starter. Edited by Ojorolla on 28 February 2012 at 2:36pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| onurdolar Diglot Groupie TurkeyRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4654 days ago 98 posts - 147 votes Speaks: Turkish*, English Studies: Italian, German | Message 63 of 84 02 March 2012 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have been through the same experience with German. I have been to Germany with Erasmus student exchange programme for 8 months and fell in love with the country then i decided to study German in depth. ( I had only acquired a beginners knowledge in those 8 months simply because i was too busy partying ) After studying German for 6 months now i no longer feel same; maybe it's just because i am a working person now and memories of fun and partying are long gone but i really think studying boring German grammer with thousands of irregularities made me dislike German culture as a whole now.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Wulfgar Senior Member United States Joined 4673 days ago 404 posts - 791 votes Speaks: English* | Message 64 of 84 02 March 2012 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | ||
FYI - you are quoting someone who almost never leaves his room. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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