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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 57 of 133 20 August 2012 at 12:41pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-19 Sonntag|Sondag
Dansk Completed words in unit 9. CC days=7 CN(counting number)=2=to(anden|andet ) (also togang = twice). Louise's Copenhagencasts have a session where the numbers are covered very well, but only up to 12 I think. Now I exaggerated the difficulty of Danish numbers for humorous(?) effect, at least for numbers up to 20. It's after 20 that it starts getting very odd; I'm not sure if Louise will help there, but we'll see. [n.b. "den anden sag" but "det andet tog". The other ordinals don't change.] Something occurred to me about Danish, which I had realised, but not thought much about before, which is that it is spoken very rapidly, in addition to its other special features. In this respect, it reminds me of Spanish, which I also had difficulty with at native speed, especially Peninsula Spanish. And like Spanish, words appear to run into one another. It seems to me that the only thing that can save the learner from this is having a good vocabulary. And being very familiar with that vocabulary as spoken by natives. If I hear English being spoken very rapidly, I may not enjoy the experience, but I will always understand it (provided that it is spoken at an audible level), because I only need to hear part of a word for my brain to fill in the rest. And I think we gradually have to get to that stage with our TLs. There is a long debate going on here just now about the size of vocabulary you need, and I would tend to think the more the better, but only if you really know the words well, i.e. know how natives say them, so while I see where s_allard is coming from, I'd want to put that number quite a bit above 300 I think, and I'd prefer if it was nearer 3000! Listened to another Copenhagencast. Recognised some words and phrases, but others were quite new. I knew Louise was an Anki fan, but I've only just found out that she has provided Anki decks based on the podcasts. I'm not sure if they are only available with the transcrpts, or if they are freely downloadable somewhere. By the way, it's interesting, in Louise's English, I think I detect something that sounds like those glottal stops they have in Danish, or at least a slightly strangulated tone. Edited by montmorency on 20 August 2012 at 12:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 58 of 133 21 August 2012 at 1:46pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-20 Montag|Mandag
Dansk CC days = 8. cn=3 = tre (tredje) Ok let's practice this: nul, en, to, tre - nul, en , to, tre; nul, en, to, tre - nul, en, to, tre. godt! But let's be gender-neutral: nul, et, to, tre, nul, et, to, tre, nul et, to, tre. OK, one more time with style and bags of swank! nul, en, to, tre nul, et to, tre, nul, en, to, tre nul, et, to, tre Hey, rødgrødmedfløde! we're going like et tog nu! We should put it to music, like that alphabet song: nul, en, to, tre nul, et, to, tre nul, en, to, tre nul, et, to, tre. 
.... ...moving swiftly on, I find it interesting and fun that the word for an island is en ø (-en- ), easy to remember because they are both round (sort of). Is that the reason islands were so named? Well, it doesn't really stand up because of course the spoken name came before the written name, but it amuses me to think otherwise. The word for inhabitant is "indbygger (-en, -e)" and I couldn't help creating an association for that based on a rather rude English word which of course is not necessary to repeat here! :) Made a good start with the words from unit 10. I'm now slightly over ½way through the book in terms of chapters. Listened to 2 Copenhagencasts. Lovely word: "overspringhandle" (sp?) - to procrastinate! :) (don't do this at home kids! :-) ). Miscellaneous We were talking about how to make languages interesting for school children. It occurs to me that children always like acting. Even I did, and I was painfully shy normally as a child, but I seemed to need no persuasion to perform before a crowd. One day, as the teacher was playing us Scottish dance music, I spontaneously got up and demonstrated the highland fling to the class. It makes me blush to think of it now, but seemed the only thing to do at the time! :) Anyway, this persuades me that one way of making languages interesting and fun would be to get the kids to perform dramas in the TL, or better still musicals, with chorus numbers that would involve the whole class. The combination of music and language is both pleasurable and educative, as many of us have found for ourselves, and even if they didn't learn much, everyone would have a good time (a bit like Cristina's experience), but I'm sure they'd learn at least as much as with "conventional methods". Would "My Fair Lady" work in French, for example? "oh, zut alors, Professor 'iggins. La reine en Espagne ne marche pas" - "Eh? oh[gallic shrug] bof!". Deutsch Chapters 25, 26, part of 27 of "unwiederbringlich" listening-only, in German. A dramatic event occurs, in which the King (a real historical figure) intervenes, although he is still reallly only a background figure. Meanwhile there are clues that the "affair" between Holk and Ebba (which has been on the cards for some time) has now begun. But there will be tears before bedtime ... Edited by montmorency on 21 August 2012 at 2:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Hekje Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 4647 days ago 842 posts - 1330 votes Speaks: English*, Dutch Studies: French, Indonesian | Message 59 of 133 21 August 2012 at 3:40pm | IP Logged |
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@montmorency - Just dropping in to say this is such a great log! The Snoopy picture is absolutely hilarious. Good
luck with your Danish and German this week. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 60 of 133 22 August 2012 at 5:21pm | IP Logged |
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@Hekje: Many thanks! Tusinde tak!
2012-08-21 Dienstag|Tirsdag Dansk CC days = 9. cn=4 = fiere (fjerde) (¼=en fjerdedel) Continued with unit 10 words, and translating dialogues, which is getting more difficult. Will come back to these after word-listing all words in unit, then write out dialogues and translate them. Copehagencast: Lousie certainly makes a refreshing change from "Alison og George" on the TYSCD CDs. But her final "d"s (e.g. in "hoved" in "hovedbanegård") definitely sound like "l"s to me! I've tried moving my tongue all over my mouth: top teeth, bottom teeth, touching, not touching, etc, and still can't get it to sound like her. But just now she really drove me crazy with "prøve" and "prøver" (test), demonstrating the difference between the pronunciation of the infinitive and the present. Now I've noticed that she seems to pronounce her "v"s as an english "w"! (which I completely didn't expect). But on this demonstration she confused me by first saying the pair of words as a "v" sound, and then repeating both with a "w" sound. What's going on? Maybe it will become clearer, later. It's funny, as I'm hearing some words on the podcasts quite clearly; ones I'm familiar with I suppose. Anyway, I think it's more realistic language than on the TYSCDs, so I'm grateful for that. I think I'm just going to stick to "th" for final/medial "d" and "v" for "v" for now and see what happens. Maybe my ear/mouth/tongue/teeth will gradually adjust to this madness! :-) Actually, that's not going to work for some "v"s I know, e.g. "have" and "give", where they are essentially silent. But "prøve(r)" seems to be different, so maybe the "ø" makes a difference. Initial "v" is "v" and no problem I think. Some nice words: "dejlig" = "nice", "lovely", etc. "fedt" = "cool" (lit. "fat"!), eller "super fedt". "vejret [weather] er super fedt!" (mehr oder veniger wie "Fett" ausgesprochen). At least the sound of "jeg håbe" ["I hope"] is very recognisable - one of those words that is more easily recognised spoken than written. There are quite a few others like that. "åben" ["open"] would be another. "båd(-en,-e)" ["boat"] another. In other cases, the writing gives the clue, and the pronunciation is a mystery! :) And of course, in so many words, it's German that gives the clue, usually in the sound I would say. So going from German to Danish is easy in one way. However, what you miss right away is that lovely clear and relatively "phonetic" pronunciation of German! Swings and roundabouts. :) "was man hier verliert, macht man dort wieder wett" auf Deutsch, anscheinend. Ich frage mich, wie sagt man das auf Dänisch? ~Later: I hit on the fairly obvious idea (but something I hadn't done much) of using the speech simulator on google translate on various words and phrases I was having trouble with. Fascinatingly, I can now hear there is a clear difference in the pronunciation of "v" in the infinitive "at prøve" and the present "jeg prøver". I knew of course that combining different consonants can affect the sound of preceding vowels, as it can in English, but what seems to be happening is that adding the "r" is also affecting the "v" so that it is sounding very like a "w" to me. And when I thought back, this is pretty much what Louise was sounding like, so maybe the similator is not far off in this case at least. And there are plenty of weirdnesses about English pronunciation. It's just that we native speakers take them for granted. Deutsch Read chapter 27 of "Unwiederbringlich" in English. Holk has decided to end his marriage. We don't know precisely what has happened between him and Ebba - it may be no more than some "stolen kisses", but anyway, I think the poor fool is "in love". I think Ebba is playing him for a sucker, as the American vernacular has it. I think Fontane (a modern author in some respects) was playing with national stereotypes a bit in this novel, e.g. the über-Germanic Christine disapproving of the "pleasure-seeking" Danes, with Holk somewhere in between. Ebba, who is actually a Swede of Germanic origin doesn't fit the Swedish stereotype as she is a fun loving sexual adventuress, and Karin, her Swedish maid, seems to be an echo of her mistress in a minor key. (Apologies to any Swedish fun-loving sexual adventuresses who may be reading! :) (I should be so lucky...). Auf Wiedersehen - Hej hej! :) 
Edited by montmorency on 22 August 2012 at 5:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 61 of 133 23 August 2012 at 3:41pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-22 Mittwoch|Onsdag
(I'm aware BTW that Danish day names don't normally take capitals, but I'm regarding that as a heading. Maybe it still shouldn't have a capital letter, but I'll leave it for now, to be consistent with the preceding ones.) Dansk CC days=10 cn=5=fem(femte) 1/5=en femtedel(?) >10 words from unit 10. While revisiting a video of Prof. Arguelles reading a text in Danish about Luther... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8q7LVy8xHM ...I came across a Dane ("Zlapster") reading the same "Luther" text. He had contacted the Prof and this was with his blessing. He explains more within: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkvu6S3_m2s Very interesting. I discovered yesterday that dict.cc has a Danish-English dictionary: http://enda.dict.cc It's still in "Beta" and a lot of the Danish sounds are missing, but it seems ok for text. There seems to be over 600,000 entries which is quite impressive, but I guess a lot of those are just variations, not really headwords in the dictionary sense. If any Danes would like to volunteer sounds...(please?) ... one a day wouldn't hurt now would it? :) There is also Swedish-English, Danish-German, and other even more exotic ones. n.b. common gender=fælleskøn neuter=intetkøn or neutrum. køn appears to mean both "gender" and "sex" :) but we'll see... Modern British English usage seems to have got its knickers firmly in a twist with the usage of "sex" vs"gender". We are now supposed to use what was originally a grammatical term to refer obliquely to someone's sex, presumably because people are afraid to use the word "sex" in case it is thought we are talking about their sex life or whatever. Sounds like Victorian prudery to me, except that I think the Victorians used the word "sex" in its proper sense. Whenever I've questioned this, I'm told "oh no no, we use the word "gender" because it encompasses much more than biological sex, but the whole gamut of masculinity or feminity....blah blah blah...". Well, if people wish to talk sociological claptrap that's entirely up to them, but when I'm distinguishing a simple biological fact about a person, I'll use the word "sex" if you don't mind! :) Swerving quickly back on-topic, it would appear that Danish doesn't have this problem, although from my watching of Scandinavian TV programmes courtesy of BBC4, it appears that Scandinavian society is at least as riddled with political correctness as our own. "PC" is actually a polite way of putting it. I have a few choice phrases of my own, but not for this log. :) Nice discovery: "så længe" (after "farvel", which is itself a nice word! :) ). And from my word lists: a false friend for German speakers: kind(en, er )=chin. However, they are safe with mund, arm, hand, and finger (tommelfinger=thumb), and ben is close enough to Bein. næse ditto. Closer to English with øye; øre is close to both. Finally signed up for the Copenhagencast transcripts (and other bonus material). The process all worked smoothly, as per the instructions on the website, I'm glad to say. Deutsch For a change listened to a "Tischgespraech". Zu Gast: Maria Krott, Autorin. Good apart from the musical interval. It's a pity that everyone chooses songs with English lyrics but if they really must, why not a decent song by a good singer, not these endlessly bland, tunelessly sub-Dylanesqe whines! Very rapid speaker, but clear. Only a few words were totally new to me, although I wasn't 100% about all the meanings. Some useful phrases: Im Schlepp*. Auf Wünsch. "Ums Leben kommen" sounds counter intuitive for "to lose one's life" or be killed; I suppose you have to think of it as "to come from life", as opposed to: to come to life.Also seperable verb: umkommen; cf. umbringen, to kill. (*My dictionary has: im Schlepptau haben - have in tow, or ins Schlepptau nehmen .. hmm, one dative, one accusative? Also: "im Schlepptau folgte ... in its wake came...". das Schlepptau=towrope. This seems to have been my day for ranting. :-) Interjects Frau|Fru M:"But every day is your day for ranting, Dear Heart". Ja, mange tak skat! Auf Wiedersehen - Farvel, så længe!
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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 62 of 133 24 August 2012 at 3:23pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-23 Donnerstag|Torsdag
Dansk CC days=11 cn=6=seks(sjette) 1/6=en sjettedel >10 words from unit 10. Also some more Copenhagencast bonus material inc. video. Some surprises. I notice she is teaching "jeg vil godt bede om en kop kaffe", in addition to (later) the "jeg vil gerne..." formula. "jeg vil godt bede om" literally means "I want to ask for/about..." (bede presumably related to "bid"). I wonder which is the more polite form, or are they the same? Also, "tak" added by way of "please". I wouldn't have thought of that. Some surprises in the pronunciation explanations, e.g. "vil" = "vi'"; jeg="jah'". That last one doesn't sound right to me, so I will continue with what I (fairly consistently, not just on these) here, which more or less rhymes with English "my" or "tie" or "yi(kes)". Except that sometimes speakers on the TYSCD seem to say it more like English "yeah" or "yay". Well even mispronounced it's going to be understood in context so I'm not going to lose sleep over it. There are more important Danish pronunciation mysteries to solve! ~Later: another Copenhagencast - the one about the Immigration service, and a lovely word: Skrankepave - "counter popes", i.e. counter clerks who aren't very helpful. Actually she was saying they are not like that at the Udlændingservice, and the lesson was about charming them with polite Danish phrases and compliments about their English :) Also: høre = hear. Now take the "h" off, and you have "øre"=ear....just like in English! (h)ear. I love this language! (Not sure that it loves me though). Another "gift" from German: Langsomt - pretty close to "langsam" - Louise said: "We Danes don't speak langsomt - we speak very quickly". Yes, that's what I think too! Her "jeg"s were sounding like what I would expect on this podcast, so, who knows! Deutsch Sank into the relative peace and quiet of another DfR, this one with Leon Hempel of T.U. Berlin, talking about "innere Sicherheit". Very good, except that he kept using the phrase "letzen Endes" over and over, as a sort of filler I suppose, but it became a little annoying after a while ... you kept waiting for the next one. I noticed that while mostly he was addressed as "Herr Hempel", occasionally the interviewer (moderator) would address him by his full name, thus: "Leon Hempel". You will also hear this form of address on the BBC sometimes. Tschüss! Vi ses! Edited by montmorency on 24 August 2012 at 3:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 63 of 133 25 August 2012 at 9:56pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-24 Freitag|Fredag
Dansk CC days=12 cn=7=syv(syvende) 1/7=en syvendedel (?) Completed words in unit 10 & made good start on unit 11. Worked on dialogues, translating mentally. Looking ahead, 8th=ottende, and on first looking, I thought 18th was the same. For helvede, even Danish couldn't do that could it!? But on closer inspection, 18th = attende. (With the typeface used in the book it wasn't very clear). Well, this may help me remember it... Gave https://acapela-box.com/AcaBox/index.php a try. Iversen had suggested this a while back. It's pretty good, I have to say. I think I could hear the final "d" properly with that if I put the volume right up. And she does the same as Louse with prøve and prøver. i.e. v then w. Must just be one of those things. Actually, listening again, it sounds like "prøyu" then "prøyer", so the "v" is closer to an English "y" than anything, at least in this context. And the "e" without the "r" is different from the "e" with the "r", but that wasn't my problem. It makes sense putting it all together though. I think. Anyway, useful little piece of kit this Acapela box! Listened to the Copenhagencast in which a 6 year old boy gives us the benefit of his research on the brain. Very cute! :) Deutsch Felt in the mood for more philosophy and listened to one of the older DfRs that I have now realised are available (look for the page numbers at the bottom which I had somehow missed before!), this one on Friedrich Nietzsche (Sendung vom 27.01.12) mit Andreas Urs Sommer, Philosoph und Jürgen Wiebicke. Another fairly rapid (but clear) speaker which is good training. It can be quite funny when a caller warms to their theme and starts to give a lecture, and Herr Wiebicke has to politely but firmly shut them up. :) But he's obviously a pro and can do it without offence. Decided to listen to a "Redezeit", which happened to have our old friend Jürgen Wiebicke as moderator (don't think it's always him), and the guest was Kai Dichman(?), Chefredacteur of Bild-Zeitung. A little more confrontational than the philosophy interviews! Interesting that he referred back to Heinrich Böll (and someone else I hadn't heard of) who famously had a run in with the Springer press. I believe "Die Verlorene Ehre von Katharina Blum" relates to those events. I'd like to re-read that book some day. ~Later: another "Redezeit" (wdr5_redezeit_20120625.mp3) about archeological "grave robbers". ~CD6.5,6, CD7.1 of "Unwiederbringlich". (around chapter 26-check). Listening-only. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4772 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 64 of 133 26 August 2012 at 4:55pm | IP Logged |
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2012-08-25 Samstag|Sonnabend|Lørdag
Busy day - travelling (planned) and trying to sort out 2 broken computers (fortunately not this one)(definitely not planned). Fortunately, one of them was not really broken. Unfortunately, the other one really was, with loss of data. *weep*. Please don't mention the word "backup" to me. Jo jeg ved! Dansk Anyway, I did do far more than my "Danish duty" in terms of words, and a worthwhile amount of time, so I think I can count CC days=13 with a clear conscience. I couldn't write them into my word lists though on the coach, so I will do this before I go to bed. So: CC days=13 cn=8=otte(ottende) 1/8=en ottendedel (?) I translated quite a few dialogues in my head. Not too difficult in this unit. Looked ahead to unit 12 and there is some fearsome vocabulary. Almost seems like a step change. I'm definitely going to have to take that unit slowly and carefully, and do lots of writing I think. One of the reasons for my travelling to the big city was by way of saying "bon voyage" to our daughter who is embarking on a short backpacking trip, involving Macedonia, Turkey and (with luck) Georgia, and quite conceivably other countries. She has recently taught herself the Cyrillic alphabet, although progress with Russian per se is a little slower. Cyrillic will not be wasted in Macedonia or Georgia I believe. Fru M. will be meeting her in Ephesus; she has done plenty of backpacking in her time, but (quite understandably) prefers to travel a little more comfortably these days. Herr M. is minding the cats! (or being minded by; no-one is sure which). Over ice-creams, we exchanged views on the finer points of Cyrillic and Danish phonology. (I'm not sure what it means, but I've sworn to try to include it in at least one sentence in this log! :) Everyone else does :-} ). Deutsch wdr5_redezeit_20120711.mp3 comedian Lutz van der Horst. His act is based on a fictitious comedian called Jimmy Breuer, who isn't very good :) A risky strategy I would have thought. Anyway, some fast talking, which is again good training. I recognised most words, without necessarily getting all the meaning. Edited by montmorency on 27 August 2012 at 11:33am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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