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"Parecem querer" / "Parece quererem" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5167 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 9 of 14 19 September 2012 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
I think there's a small confusion here. It's not that the personal infinitive isn't used in the spoken language; it's just that for the most used forms at the spoken language, the personal infinitive form is the same as the plain infinitive form, which means you don't need to memorize an extra form. In fact, personal infinitive is most of the times preferred over the subjunctive. The most evident example, also mentioned in the article, is of the type: for (subject) to (verb) = He brought the book for us to read. In Portuguese, the most common form uses the infinitive, just like English. It's just that our infinitive gets inflected = Ele trouxe o livro para nós lermos./Ele trouxe o livro para a gente ler. with subjunctive (I guess it's the one in French and Spanish) = Ele trouxe o livro para que nós lêssemos. Now, the fact we use "a gente" instead of "nós" in spoken language makes us use "para a gente LER" which is a verbal form of the personal infinitive equal to the standard infinitive, instead of "para nós lermos", which got a fully remarkable personal infinitive. That is true for the 1st and 2nd persons singular and 1st plural but NOT for the 2nd and 3rd person plural at which the personal infinitive is alive, kicking, robbing banks and greeting mom early in the morning. The chart full-conjugation X most used forms will show us the difference. FULL_CONJUGATION para eu ler - para eu ler SPOKEN FULL_CONJUGATION para tu leres - para você ler SPOKEN FULL_CONJUGATION para ele ler - para ele ler SPOKEN FULL_CONJUGATION para nós lermos - para nós lermos/para a gente ler SPOKEN FULL_CONJUGATION para vós lerdes - para vocês lerem SPOKEN FULL_CONJUGATION para eles lerem - para eles lerem SPOKEN So, as an urban speaker, I will always say "para vocês lerem", "para eles fazerem", even at relaxed contexts. I may replace "nós" with "a gente" and that will make me say "para a gente ler" instead of "para nós lermos", but there will be times when I'll say "para nós lermos as well". YOU, learner of Portuguese as a foreigner, don't say *Para vocês ler or *para eles ler, it's a certificate of bad education. If you want to succeed at integrating at the society, it's better to avoid those language usages that just hurt your speakers' ears/eyes. I don't see myself saying "pra vocês ler" unless I'm speaking BOTH very quickly and in a relaxed way, even though you may here at my current city's usage things like "p'ês ler". That is all to say that personal infinitive is alive at the spoken language and is preffered over subjunctive constructions when possible. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| FireViN Diglot Senior Member Brazil missaoitaliano.wordpRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5230 days ago 196 posts - 292 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishC2 Studies: Italian | Message 10 of 14 21 September 2012 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | |||||
A bit off-topic, but... I agree that learners should avoid that kind of language, but IMO it's not a "certificate of bad education" at all. I use "pra nós ler" (or "p'cês ler - para vocês lerem", in my city) quite regularly, and consider myself well educated. It's a matter of environment, I wouldn't speak like this when talking to a Professor at the university where I study, but "pra gente ler" would be accepted. But again, learners should avoid using that kind of informal language. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5883 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 11 of 14 21 September 2012 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
Well, I said that this is seldom used and not that this is not used. Indeed, as you said, there are some standard ways where we see personal infinitives in spoken language and almost only, again, as you said, in the 3rd person singular, which doesn't require any further inflection.
I'll assume that you are not a Carioca and that you are younger than 30. In Rio de Janeiro, doesn't matter how old you are, "pra nós ler" is a clear sign of a non-carioca or uneducated person. All over this country, I've never seen older educated people talking this way. As you said, it depends on environment. Here in Brasília, even at the University, some younger people speak like that, but I think that they do that mostly "pour épater le bourgeois". It is very interesting to compare this discussion with that about the subjunctive in English, which can be seen in this other thread in HTLAL. Edited by Flarioca on 21 September 2012 at 11:21pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4669 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 12 of 14 22 September 2012 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I've heard many times in Globo soap operas: PRA TU IR EMBORA...
Even rich adolescents use TU FALOU, O QUE TU SONHAR (and not: Tu falaste, o que tu sonhares) The only time I've heard TU in the correct form, was in that song ''Menino do Rio'' (O que tu sonhares, as ondas dos mares...) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 13 of 14 23 September 2012 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Sorry for the belated thank you to everyone for their input. I just wanted the conversation to flow a bit before I thanked everyone. There was quite a bit of material that is useful here, quite a bit of it I had already learned, but explained in another form or from a native's point of view, and both are very helpful.
I think the personal infinitive is scarier than it should be. At first it seems confusing when to use it, but it really isn't, of course, one as a foreigner may misuse it at some point, but it's better to do that than to avoid it. I always use it: - in impersonal expressions (É preciso nós escovarmos os dentes) - with the expression "Ao + verb" (Ao fechar a porta, lembrei que a chave ficou dentro do escritório) - when explaining why something happened with the preposition "por" (Eu fui embora por chegarem os pais dela.) - in the construction "conjugated verb + TER + past participle" (Você nos acusou de termos roubado as canetas) If these are wrong, let me know, but doing quite a bit of research and lots of reading I'm pretty sure those are situations where the PI is always preffered. Of course the other environment is when replacing the subjunctive in certain situations where the subjects of the main verb and the dependent clause are not the same (Ela pediu para lhe telefonarmos). I'm still getting used to that one I admit, as there is a bit stronger interference of my Spanish here for some reason compared to the situations above (Spanish: Ella pidió que le llamásemos). By far the most difficult for me is Personal infinitive vs subjunctive in subjunctive conjunctions (sem que, a menos que, contanto que, etc). I'm really not sure here what natives prefer, and in fact it seems it depends on the conjunction: "para que" universally prefers the personal infinitive, but other conjuctions seem to always have the subjunctive. My 2cents of where I stand. Thanks everyone! Edited by outcast on 23 September 2012 at 6:20pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tuco Pentaglot Newbie Brazil Joined 4513 days ago 17 posts - 25 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English, Italian, Spanish, French | Message 14 of 14 26 September 2012 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
The use of "tu" conjugated as if it were "você" is commonplace in Southern Brazil. It is not unusual in Rio either, though not everyone uses it (I don't), and definitely not formal in the slightest. However, we do use the pronom "te" a lot, even when we're using "você". Using the correct pronom "lhe" would make it sound unnatural in the Southeast (Rio and São Paulo). It's quite common in Northeastern Brazil, however. So it would be like this: Southeast: Você vem hoje? É que eu quero te falar uma coisa. South: Tu vem hoje? É que eu quero te falar uma coisa. Northeast: Você vem hoje? É que eu quero lhe falar uma coisa. 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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