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Haben and sein German verbs | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 9 of 15 09 October 2012 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Interesting list Flarioca; thanks.
But would anyone like to comment on these two:
I can think of a couple of possible explanations, but I'd prefer a more authoritative opinion, rather than speculate. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 10 of 15 09 October 2012 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
"Der Wein ist gegoren" is Zustandspassiv, while "Der Wein hat gegoren" is present perfect. Edited by Josquin on 09 October 2012 at 6:59pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4829 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 11 of 15 10 October 2012 at 12:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Thanks Josquin. Could we also conceive of a "normal" Vorgangspassiv here such as: "Der Wein wird von der Wirkung von Zucker und Hefe gegoren" ? (I know nothing about wine making, so apologies for technical inaccuracy...let's pretend it works that way for this example!) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4845 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 12 of 15 10 October 2012 at 9:16am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, of course, but the correct sentence would be: "Der Wein wird durch die Wirkung von Zucker und Hefe gegoren (or maybe better: vergoren)." 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 13 of 15 15 October 2012 at 12:38am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes! It is exactly what I'm looking for, don't care if it is incomplete. Question: Is it safe to assume that all the "haben" examples, like the ones above, are transitive even if the accusative is ommited? I placed the "ommited" objects in bold above. If so, is it then possible to conclude that any "sein" verb that could possibly make sense with a direct object, would then be able to use "haben". Finally, some verbs seem to just depend on the speaker. Some speakers use haben with "tanzen", others use sein. It seems from doing some reading that sein will be preffered if the preposition is accusative, and haben if the preposition is dative. i.e. = tanzen mit jmdm i.e. = tanzen durch (einen Raum) Does this sound plausible? Edited by outcast on 15 October 2012 at 5:38pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4623 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 14 of 15 15 October 2012 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
What about bleiben? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| outcast Bilingual Heptaglot Senior Member China Joined 4950 days ago 869 posts - 1364 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English*, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, Mandarin Studies: Korean | Message 15 of 15 15 October 2012 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Bleiben and sein are the only two major exceptions to the rule of using "sein". Though one could say there are a few other exceptions. "Begegnen" to me does not seem to indicate any change of condition or location, it just means to run into someome, but uses "sein". Treffen is not that different ("to meet") yet it uses "haben".
There may be one or two more that escape me right now, but all the other ones when you think about them show a change of status for the subject, or a change of locale. Verbs like "weichen" which have two past participles for two different meanings take "sein" in both definitions: the strong "gewichen" means "to yield" as in allowing some space between people or things, or "to step away/back"; the weak "geweicht" version means "to make bland/soft" or "soak". In the first meaning you are making space or distance, which is a change of location. In the second, the subject is suffering a change in condition (as in "The leaves have softened in the water" = "Die Blätter sind im Wasser geweicht". 1 person has voted this message useful |
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