Ideas for a purely ling. CEFR-like scale? (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Ideas for a purely ling. CEFR-like scale?
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Language Learning Forum : General discussion

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Serpent
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Speaks: Russian*, English, Finnish^C1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
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Message 17 of 35

29 June 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged

s_allard wrote:

Let's take the example of telling jokes. This is one of the hardest skills to master in a foreign language.

Jokes or humour depend on a combination of three elements: 1) some kind of play on words and often some
slang 2) cultural, social or historical references and 3) comedic delivery or the art of telling jokes, which may
include the imitation of different accents.

I strongly doubt that someone even at the B2 level can fully understand most jokes, let alone tell them.

The difficulty of telling jokes depends on your sense of humour
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s_allard
Triglot
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Message 18 of 35

29 June 2013 at 1:26pm | IP Logged

Since we talk so much about the CEFR, often without knowing exactly what went into it and what it was designed to
do, some people may be interested in this excellent paper from the University of Cambridge on
Using the
CEFR - Principles of Good Practice
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Serpent
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Message 19 of 35

29 June 2013 at 2:25pm | IP Logged

Is it really necessary to go "you don't even know what it is!!!!1" in every single thread?

BTW your link says "CEFR is not language or context-specific". So maybe it's you who's wrong in insisting it's only for academic and business use
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Bao
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Message 20 of 35

29 June 2013 at 4:30pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

The difficulty of telling jokes depends on your sense of humour

Yes, that and general social competence. When you know how to work with the situation and
with what you know in a language you can entertain people even when you're still learning
to reach A1. On the other hand, reliably understanding native speaker's humour that
wasn't specifically meant for you to understand means you should be able to cope with
daily life in the other culture ... at least the chitchat part of it.

Edited by Bao on 29 June 2013 at 4:32pm
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s_allard
Triglot
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Message 21 of 35

29 June 2013 at 5:36pm | IP Logged

I'm recently reminded of that quote by the great French writer Chateaubriand: "Il faut être économe de son
mépris, il y a tant de nécessiteux." Now let's get back to serious business.

mrwarper wrote:

If you have been following this other thread (Average
Joe/Jose takes a level test) about C2 tests and natives, you know many of us think one 'flaw' of the CEFR
scale is that the higher the level, the more stuff is taken into account that's more cognitive-based than purely
dependant on knowledge of the TL. This is perfectly fine for the goals covered by the CEFR, mind you, but some
of us are not all too happy about it yet. In the words of another HTLALer,

nonneb wrote:

I lived in a very isolated rural area and communicated almost exclusively with campesinos from
the area. Would those B2/C1/C2 skills like presentations and making arguments and understanding complex
texts and writing cohesive papers have been useful there? Hardly. Would it have been helpful to have had a better
command of Spanish than my B2 ability? Yes, but not in a way that had anything to do with C1 or C2 skills. I
needed to speak more fluidly, understand better, and make fewer mistakes. I want a framework that lets me
measure that without also measuring whether or not I'm educated. It's irrelevant to me and to my life.

I'd be very interested in devising an alternative language level system that would do exactly that: measure
language ability beyond the B1 level without involving the candidate education as well, or doing so as little as
possible. I know many of you will think this is not necessary. While that might even be true, I think for most
others of us here the whole idea is interesting at the very least, so please try and spare us the comments on how
we are wasting time on this ;)

My own ideas would start with seeing how well candidates do whatever we decide to test in their native language
first (so there's a linguistic handicap of 0), then using that as a measure to see how well the same task is tested
in the presence of linguistic hurdles. This assumes everyone is always most competent using their NL than any
other, which would be true except for possibly narrow, very especially TL-cultured areas. I understand some will
see this working hypothesis as too far-fetched, so alternatives to that are also welcome...

I have previously argued in favor of creating a new model of language performance that better meets the needs
of users like @nonneb. After revisiting some the CEFR background material, I've come to the conclusion that I
was
wrong and that the
problem is more with the exams themselves rather than with the CEFR model itself.

When you look at the "can do" statements of the CEFR model, they are broad enough, I believe, to encompass the
needs of @nonneb. It's the implemetation in an exam that is the problem. The current exams are eurocentric and
academically oriented, to wit the emphasis on written materials. So, maybe the real problem is how to design
an appropriate-content exam rather than a so-called content-free exam.

Edited by s_allard on 29 June 2013 at 5:45pm
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Serpent
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Message 22 of 35

29 June 2013 at 7:03pm | IP Logged

Exactly. That's why at the Finnish exam there's no presentation nonsense.
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Serpent
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Message 23 of 35

29 June 2013 at 7:37pm | IP Logged

Bao wrote:

Serpent wrote:

The difficulty of telling jokes depends on your sense of humour

Yeah, but I do think understanding jokes is a reasonable expectation for B2, unless one has been mostly studying but not actually talking outside classes.

Just like presentations, jokes are a skill that can be transferred from L1, at least to some extent. Difficulties arise when learners try to *translate* jokes from their native language. Doesn't work, you have to come up with your own most of the time. Or explain the context convincingly, which is much harder.

Also @s_allard, it's not allowed to post non-English stuff without translation. Especially if you're deliberately saying it to someone who doesn't speak the language. (I figured out the meaning, no worries)

Edited by Serpent on 29 June 2013 at 7:40pm
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s_allard
Triglot
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Message 24 of 35

29 June 2013 at 10:42pm | IP Logged

Juаn wrote:

...
How can "language ability" devoid of meaningful expression be measured? Perhaps a pure grammar examination,
like declension, conjugation or syntax exercises. I for one however would not rank success in these task very
highly as an indication of language achievement.

We may not be there yet, but I think @juan has raised an essential question that I have alluded to. If meaning is a
fundamental component of language, how can one assess language skills without being able to observe in some
form how the user is able to convey meaning, especially at the high proficiency levels?

For example, one of the key indicators of high speaking proficiency is the use of idiomatic expressions because
idioms often have at least two layers of interpretation, a literal and a figurative. How can one assess this in an
interview? You could attempt to make up a list of idioms and ask the person their meaning.

The alternative, as is done today is to observe how the person talks about certain subjects and see how the
candidate can speak in an idiomatic manner. The more proficient speaker will sooner or later say things,
especially expressions, that let us know that they have good control over the language. We might even let certain
mistakes go because overall the mastery of the language is manifest.

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