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Question about Old English | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Masked Avenger Triglot Senior Member Antarctica Joined 6137 days ago 145 posts - 151 votes  Speaks: English, French*, Danish Studies: Finnish, Latin | Message 1 of 8 29 June 2013 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Danish, a Germanic language like English, there's a clear dichotomy between
accountables and unaccountables. This exists to a certain extent in modern English when you say I have many kids versus I have much sympathy for you. Now in Danish, the dichotomy sticks when you have comparatives/superlatives while it does not in English (I have more kids/I have more sympathy). I strongly suspect old English was the same as Danish but lost the distinction through the centuries. I've tried looking online for an answer and can only find the Old English equivalent to much/more/most. Not sure what corresponds to many in Old English or if there's even a comparative/superlative for it (it's mange/flere/flest in Danish) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6706 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 2 of 8 29 June 2013 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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I am not a specialist in Old English and I don't own an English -> Anglosaxon dictionary so I can't just look the words 'much' and 'many' up and give you the results, but I have read a few things in the language, including the monumental masterwork Beowulf, so when I saw this question I turned to www.heorot's bilingual edition to see with my own eyes how the old folks expressed the notions of much and many (and maybe even find a few comparatives and superlatives) (translations by B.Slade):
With "many" in the translation I found examples like the following : monegum maégþum / meodosetla oftéah --> from many peoples / seized mead-benches; Monig oft gesæt / Many often sat ond hine ymb monig /and round him many but also þus manige men / módiglícran ---> this many men / looking braver in spirit; Árás þá se ríca, /ymb hine rinc manig ---> Then the mighty one arose, /about him many warriors, I'm not quite sure whether monig and manig is considered as variants of the same word, but ultimately they both must be the same thing as Danish "mange", hvis i accountable. A third variant "mænigo" may be accountable, but I wouldn't trust the following example as long as I don't know whether "mádma" is a plural or not ("scoldon" does however suggest that it is, and then mænigo is also accountable): mádma mænigo / þá him mid scoldon ---> many treasures, which with him must, There is however also another word "fela": fyrene ond faéhðe / fela misséra, ---< felony and feud, / for many seasons Wigáf maðelode / wordrihta fela .. and this word is different as it sometimes is translated as "much": felasinnigne secg /séc gif þú dyrre ---> the much-sinning creature; / seek if you dare; þæt hé his fréond wrece / þonne hé fela murne --> that he his friend avenge, / than he mourn over-much; ... but apparently not with substantives, where it alsways means "many" in the examples I have seen. In some case "many" or "much" is translated from the word "micle", which also was used in Old Norse (Miklagardr = Constantinople) - and as far as i remember there is a wall or gate in York which has preserved to word in its name). Its basic meaning is 'big', but you find examples like: né hyne on medobence / micles wyrðne ---> nor to him on the mead-bench / much honour It can also be used as reinforcement for a comparative ('much more'): oftor micle / ðonne on aénne síð --> much more often / than on a single venture, A true comparative looks like this (with an -r form that still is used in Modern English) - my general impression is however that the synthetic comparatives are much more dominating in Anglosaxon than they are in Modern English. : Him wæs bám samod --> Theirs was both together on ðám léodscipe / lond gecynde ---> in that nation / inherited land, eard éðelriht, / óðrum swíðor ---> earth by ancestral privelege, / to the second more síde ríce / þám ðaér sélra wæs. ---> of that broad kingdom / to him who was higher. cfr þæt mé is micle léofre --> that to me (it) is much more agreeable As far as I remember there is also a superlative on -st. But what about the analytic comparatives and superlatives with more/most? Well, "most" is "maest" in the following example with both an analytic and a synthetic superlative: forðán hé manna maést / maérða gefremede ---> because he of men the most /glories has achieved daéda dollicra --> the most audacious deeds and the comparative of 'much' (máre) is here, in the first example with a non accountable substantive and as an adverbial reinforcement of an adjective in the second: hæfde máre mægen ---> he had more might naéfre ic máran geseah --> never have I seen greater eorla ofer eorþan /ðonne is éower sum, ---> noble on earth / than the one that you are, There is also a shorter form "má", here used with a substantival function: swá hé hyra má wolde ---> as he would have more of them The remaining question is what you use with accountable subsantives, and here I have found a few examples with "má" and something accountable: máðmaéhta má --> more treasures (seen twice - but I'm not sure máðmaéhta truly is countable) swá hé hyra má wolde --> as he would have more of them .. but there are not many of these constructions in the poem. By the way, in ´Modern Danish "mange" (many) is only used in the plural (with accountables), but in archaic expressions you may still find the singular: "mangen gang" = "many a time". The unaccountable word is "megen" = "megen møje" (much ado, much trouble), which clearly is related to the adverb "meget". Edited by Iversen on 01 July 2013 at 3:48pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4831 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 3 of 8 29 June 2013 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | ||
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Seeing the reference to "micle" above, reminded me of "many a mickle makes a muckle"
(which seems to be a misquote of something earlier: mickle 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Masked Avenger Triglot Senior Member Antarctica Joined 6137 days ago 145 posts - 151 votes Speaks: English, French*, Danish Studies: Finnish, Latin | Message 4 of 8 29 June 2013 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes it does.
Using etymological dictionaries, much seems to be Old English "micel" and many is Old English "manig/monig". I can find the comparative and superlative of proto-Germanic "many", but not in Old English. Could it be that it was really gone by the time Old English formed? Edit: Yes, checked Old Saxon and lo and behold "manag (always strong, no comparative or superlative form)". I guess that settles it. Edited by Masked Avenger on 29 June 2013 at 10:22pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4831 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 5 of 8 30 June 2013 at 12:05am | IP Logged | ||
I've just realised your starting premise may be wrong here: "I have many more kids than you" "I have much more sympathy for the wife than for the husband". There is still a dichotomy. Edited by montmorency on 30 June 2013 at 12:06am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Masked Avenger Triglot Senior Member Antarctica Joined 6137 days ago 145 posts - 151 votes Speaks: English, French*, Danish Studies: Finnish, Latin | Message 6 of 8 30 June 2013 at 12:15am | IP Logged | ||
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It seems optional and a matter of degrees when you come right down to it.
much/many more = greater difference in emphasis more = difference there but lesser or not specified at all. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6706 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 8 01 July 2013 at 10:28am | IP Logged | ||
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In Modern English 'many' is always accountable (btw why isn't it 'countable'?), while 'much' is used with unaccountables in the positive (much snow), but also to reinforce comparatives, which is a totally different situation (much higher). In this last situation the question of (ac)countability is not really relevant.
According to an online etymological dictionary 'much' comes from Middle English muchel "large, much," from Old English micel "great in amount or extent," from Proto-Germanic *mekilaz, from PIE *meg- "great" (see mickle). As a noun and an adverb, from c.1200. So there is a thin thread from 'much' back to "micel", which already had a somewhat fuzzy usage in Anglosaxon, but it isn't a direct descendant of "micel" - it has passed through "muckle" with a substantival/adverbial role. In contrast the same etymological dictionary accepts without further ado "more" as a descendant of the comparative of "micel": Old English mara "greater, more, stronger, mightier," used as a comparative of micel "great" (see mickle), from Proto-Germanic *maizon- (cf. Old Saxon mera, Old Norse meiri, Old Frisian mara, Middle Dutch mere, Old High German mero, German mehr), from PIE *meis- (cf. Avestan mazja "greater," Old Irish mor "great," Welsh mawr "great," Greek -moros "great," Oscan mais "more"), from root *me- "big." Sometimes used as an adverb in Old English ("in addition"), but Old English generally used related ma "more" as adverb and noun. This became Middle English mo, but more in this sense began to predominate in later Middle English. It seems I forgot to illustrate "máre" (more) in my previous messages, but here is a double example from Beowulf (to be inserted below "cfr"): naéfre ic máran geseah --> never have I seen greater eorla ofer eorþan /ðonne is éower sum, ---> noble on earth / than the one that you are, EDIT: I already had one example with "máre", but the quotes from the etymological dictionary clear up a couple of the doubts I had about the Anglosaxon system. It doesn't seem as exotic any more, and with a stab like this once in a while I may end up being able to read the stuff off the page. But I'm not there yet.. Edited by Iversen on 02 July 2013 at 11:04am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5456 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 8 of 8 06 July 2013 at 11:02am | IP Logged | ||
I thought 'countable' and 'uncountable' were common terminology. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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