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Results of speaking after comprehension? | ||
Tags: Silent period | Speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6826 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes  2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 25 of 47 28 October 2013 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | ||
Good points. I'll put some more thought into self talk as part of the experiment. I've done self talk before but never before in a truly concerted way. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7206 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 26 of 47 29 October 2013 at 8:57am | IP Logged | ||
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If "speak well" means good pronunciation without hesitancy and very few grammar errors, then I voted 3-6 months. This partly depends on the language and how different its sound system is from one's native language. A lot depends on the amount of time one can devote to the language during that time. If one can study full time, they will make a lot more and faster progress than one who can only spend 30 minutes or an hour per day. My 3-6 month vote was based on part time study of a non-exotic language.
The comments about individual varitation and background are insightful. I also found the discussion of efficiency thought provoking. If one's primary interest is speaking, then speaking early in the learning process seems efficacious. Another big factor is the availability of targetted material and discipline on the part of the student. If an FSI pattern drill course is available and the student focuses primarily on their weak points, rather than just slugging their way through the whole course as they would need to at the beginner stage, their progress will take less time. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5010 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 27 of 47 29 October 2013 at 10:16am | IP Logged | ||
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I think using alternative methods for speaking practice could make a world of
difference here. And so would large doses of listening. The final huge variable would be how to spend the "speech activation" time. In general, I would say: Not speaking much even with yourself or audio and than going to regular practice sessions once or twice a week: 3-6 months, perhaps even more. Not speaking much even with yourself or audio and than full immersion in the country:1- 3 months. Full use of the alternatives I mentioned and going to the regular practice sessions: 1- 3 months. Full use of the alternatives and going to the country for full immersion: 1-3weeks. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6826 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 28 of 47 29 October 2013 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | ||
Thanks very much for your response. I'm thinking that, for the conversing stage, I'd spend at least 1 hour/day making a concerted effort to speak Spanish with a friend/language partner and also about a week of immersion (vacation in Spain?). So to review, my current basic thoughts based on this conversation: 1. Spanish to basic fluency (~CEFR Level B2) in terms of reading and listening. I expect this will take +/- 1 year at my current pace of 2 hours of active study per day plus additional passive listening/watching. 2. Include a lot reading aloud and especially self-talk, something I need to look into more and figure out. 3. Once B2-level reading/listening, begin to converse extensively (preferably at least 1 hour/day). And just to reiterate to those who may not have read the entire thread, this is just an experiment. I do not advocate completely avoiding conversation until achieving fluency in reading/listening ("passive fluency"?). This experiment would be to test, simply because I find it to be an interesting question (and because I'm an experimental nerd), "how long does it take to achieve fluency in speaking only after first achieving fluency in reading (mainly fictional books) and listening (movies, tv)?". 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 29 of 47 29 October 2013 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | ||
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This depends on so many factors though! I know in my case having quite a bit of experience with linguistics and Latin was really important.
I think it also depends on how much effort it takes. For example in many non-IE languages the "newspaper words" will not be as easy to a Westerner as in Spanish or even Russian. If reading requires a significant effort and AJATT is not your thing, it's better not to delay speaking infinitely. Finally, it depends on whether you learn the grammar prior to speaking (you never replied btw) and how much grammar "there is" to learn (especially morphology). To sum up, this is an even harder question than "how long does it take to learn a language well?" 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6826 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes 2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 30 of 47 29 October 2013 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | ||
I'm not sure I'll do formal grammar exercises, but I'll certainly learn through context. I assume I'll understand it before speaking, one way or another. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5010 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 31 of 47 30 October 2013 at 9:34am | IP Logged | ||
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Your experiment sounds good. And after all, many people need to postpone speaking with
someone else for practical reasons (not having the money to pay a tutor and having a native language noone wants to exchange for theirs). Really, how well prepared you are for the immersion or the practice opportunity makes a lot of difference. Most success stories include a lot of preparation beforehand and/or a lot of work on their own in the meantimes in the country to catch up. Most disappointements are voiced by people who knew nearly nothing of the language and bascially expected it to just leak through their skin from the air in the country. If I was to name one thing that made the most difference for me, it would be high level of listening comprehension. That and correct basics of pronunciation. I wish you a lot of success. Would you care to keep a log? I'd be interested in your path and results :-) 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6704 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 47 30 October 2013 at 9:56am | IP Logged | ||
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Montmorency's detailed description of selftalk is also relevant for thinking in a target language, and personally I find it so much easier just to think it chances are that I'll do it. If I start to speak to myself I will first have to find a place where nobody can hear me and then I have to force myself not to stop talking.
This is just one case where there is a connection between the effort needed to continue doing something and the risk that you just stop doing it without even noticing. Paradoxically the same trade-off is one of the reasons that I only try to learn new vocabulary when I can write it down - it is so much easier to stop memorizing when you just do it in your head then it is when there is a tangible result of yur activities. So how come that thinking at least for me can go on longer than speaking to myself? Well, the difference is the thought somewhere in my head that speaking is something you do to communicate (oneway or twoways), so when nobody answers the monologue tends to die out. In this situation a combination of a lot of thinking, a little bit of talking aloud and a modicum of reading aloud (to train the physical speaking apparatus) may be a realistic solution until you find some native or nearnative speaker who is willing to listen to you and maybe even answer. One problem is of course finding something to think (or speak) about. Personally I have a constant inner monologue going on, but from earlier threads I know that some learners don't have that. If you do have that kind of monologue then the only problem is to switch languages without risking that it stops with a howling screech on the tracks. And that can be a problem in a weak language. One way of overcoming this can be to watch TV in your own language (or one you can listen to without any effort, like English in my case) and then trying to translate the incomings stream of babble on the fly. Of course it will be a parody and at best fragmentary and errorridden in the beginning, but you will learn to go on because you here have an external source to follow. And once you have learnt to live with that kind ragged and flimsy thinking you can also do it when there isn't an external source to pace you. Edited by Iversen on 30 October 2013 at 9:59am 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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