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Results of speaking after comprehension? | ||
Tags: Silent period | Speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6551 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 41 of 47 04 November 2013 at 6:02am | IP Logged | |||||
Not only is this wrong, but you also risk fossilizing poor pronunciation even if you're not reading out loud. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 42 of 47 04 November 2013 at 6:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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*Or unless you're so stubborn that you do enough listening to hear your mistakes but do nothing to fix them.
Agreed about not reading out loud. But not listening will still be the real reason. Edited by Serpent on 04 November 2013 at 6:38am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6551 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 43 of 47 04 November 2013 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
Quit trying to isolate them. Master the basics of pronunciation/orthography before you start reading. Nobody here is advocating not listening, unless we are talking about your advice. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 44 of 47 04 November 2013 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm not so sure fossilization is something you cannot fix later on, although I agree with you that training pronunciation is very important to get right (and let's face it - it is the first thing I study personally - if there's an alphabet, that too). Pronunciation is a matter of maintaing focus and articulating clearly (I speed up way too quickly, which means that my speech is often more garbled than it is due to any inability to pronounce a phoneme correctly; though I will grant that I err with some of them). I find that phonology is an understudied and undervalued part of language learning precisely because it is often this one by which you are judged by other native speakers - the use of contemporary language is another one. This is why I advocate learning to pronounce, distinguish and train pronunciation FIRST (not later), but if you do it later I am sure you can fix those errors, though it may take some time. I personally maintain quite a bit of an accent in many language, quite a "flat" Dutch one - except in English because I grew up with that. You'll also hear I reduce vowels too strongly for most Romance languages, don't have enough tonal variation for Swedish, roll my r's very strongly if I have to use that sound, and so on. I can do this correctly, but it's more focus than it is actual inability. And it's important to distinguish between nuances - soft and hard sounds in Russian, aspiration and fortis consonants in Korean, voicing in some languages, palatalization and so on. Often people sound more wrong because of this than the grammar. And it's usually just inattentive of the learner - I took a few months to learn to roll an r but I can use it in tonnes of languages now. Very useful time investment. Edited by tarvos on 04 November 2013 at 6:29pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 45 of 47 04 November 2013 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Nobody advocates not listening, but many don't do enough. Most, I would say.
You just obviously haven't experienced what it's like when your mind corrects your throat as you subvocalize. Or when you sing in the language for the first time and you know where you sound off (linguistically, not musically). Speaking/pronouncing from day one is overrated. The fear of fossilization does more harm than good. Back in 2007, it actually affected my 6WC decisions (because it had to be a new language) and indirectly the general language learning decisions. I wasn't ready to start a full-blown active study of Portuguese or Italian, so I picked Yiddish and Esperanto, only to make them the only languages I've ever quit. Portuguese and Italian are more special, so I didn't dare to get started if I didn't want to double-check everything I say aloud/subvocalize. Now I see that listening is much more important, and when you use audiobooks you are safe. If you use them a lot, this safety will linger. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 46 of 47 04 November 2013 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | |||||
You don't necessarily need to speak to anyone, but simply train your phonemes. I don't talk to anyone either - once I get to a bit of a decent level I'll have them verified. 95% of the time my pronunciation is clear, fluid and good enough - people will remark that yes, I have an accent, but no, they will not change to English because of it, and yes, it's more than good enough to understand my speech in a coherent fashion. Job done. Anything else is embellishment, but hey, we can like that. To be clear - I do think taking risks is a good idea. I have found that for me I need to leave my comfort zone much earlier - life begins where your comfort zone ends. I don't like this safety because to me it breeds complacency - and I never want to remain complacent and unfocused, it spells death to curiosity. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| theyweed Senior Member Poland Joined 3813 days ago 23 posts - 33 votes Speaks: English | Message 47 of 47 24 December 2014 at 8:38am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm looking forward to seeing a result of your undertaking. Though, I think the result
definitely won't function as an answer to the question "Capability of speaking after the input only method". Here and there you claim that this is the input only experiment, but actually it's not (probably your notion of input in mine vary, but let it go, for the time being). You do lots of speaking derivatives (reading aloud, shadowing, talking to yourself) with only one issue which differates your way from "the real speaking", namely, there is no other organism capable of building utterances. I've read somewhere (later, I'll try to provide with the specific data) that our brains don't make a great distinction between speaking to yourself and speaking to another person, in terms of practice. Especially if you do, I'm not sure whether everyone does it in this way, the conscious shadowing, by which I mean that you already know the text and you focus on the utterances about to be said, you think about them in your native language and then you shadow them, as a recording goes. Also, this is what you call "the silent period"? Speaking to your self, aloud repetition, aloud reading, shadowing? I'm certainly missing something here, aren't I? That being said, I think the data which is about to be brought by you won't be significant as fas as the question of only input is concerned. What you do, in my opinion is input + hardcore preparation to speaking. I guess there are people who focused less on such speaking practice and aimed only for comprehensible input and then started speaking. There's no need to look far: I've been studying French for 6 months now. I use only input, I don't do shadowing, nor speak to myself. I do read aloud. I've spoken once to a francophone and it was OK. In fact my level is only about wobbly A2, for I don't study daily and not 2h/day for my studying day, but that's not the point here. What I want to underline is my speaking was also (A2). I'm aware of the fact that as the level rises so does the dissimilarity between input/output. Forgive me the word, which sometimes has a negative connocation, but such cheating (speaking, shadow etc.) is NOT the input only method. Maybe you should have named the topic, "Facing a speaker after having done input plus impersonal speaking practice" or "The difference between speaking to yourself and with other person" or "Results of input aided by speaking practice". I've also chosen "1-3 weeks" in the pole. Don't have to elucidate why, do I? 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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