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Gary’s TAC 2014: Spanish, Italian, French | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| suzukaze Triglot Senior Member Italy bit.ly/1bGm459 Joined 4603 days ago 186 posts - 254 votes  Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese | Message 49 of 138 21 March 2014 at 10:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hi, I made a few corrections to your entry. In some cases they were mistakes, in other cases I suggested an alternative solution in order to make your sentence sound more natural.
• queste mese > questo mese, mese is masculine • su un punto grammaticale > un aspetto della grammatica • quello tempo > questo tempo • di cui non ci si serve quasi mai > che non si usa quasi mai • delle cose > di cose A small clarification: in Northern Italy we use the passato remoto as you said, that is when we talk about things happened in a very distant past, since we rely on the passato prossimo. However, in Central or Southern Italy, they tend to use the passato remoto as their “default” past tense.
• Per esempio parlavo > Per esempio parlando -or- Per esempio quando parlavo • miei conversazioni > mie conversazioni, conversazioni is female • diventano > stanno diventando • parlare del > parlare usando il passato remoto • trattarsi > ricorrere al. Trattare means that the topic of your conversation is the presente/passato prossimo. I think you wanted to say that you now tend to talk more about things happened in a distant past, rather than present or recent past events. Feel free to correct me if I got it wrong :)
• della famiglia > della mia famiglia; you are not talking about family in general • ho pensato ad esercitarlo > ho pensato di esercitarmi • Comunque riconosco e comprendo bene il passato remoto, avendo letto parecchi libri > Comunque, avendo letto…, riconosco • ad usarlo > a usarlo. You should add the -d (it’s called d eufonica) only if the last letter of the first word and the first letter of the second word are the same, such as: ad andare -or- ed ecco 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5208 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 50 of 138 24 March 2014 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks suzukaze, these corrections are really useful! "queste mese" instead of "questo" is obvious Spanish interference (este mes) - like I've said it goes both ways and I've also said the incorrect "esto mes" when speaking Spanish ;). Aside from that and other silly mistakes, I realise I often don't say things in the most natural way, and not many people point out these things so again thanks.
I've heard of the idea of people from further south using the passato remoto more, but I've not actually experienced it much. But I've never travelled anywhere further south than Rome, and most of the Southern Italians I've met have spent time living or studying in the North so maybe they've picked up the habit of using it less. Although I have noticed them using it more when talking about things that happened, say, a few years ago (so neither particularly recently nor particularly long ago). The "d eufonica" has also confused me, because I've seen and heard different things regarding it. I know it should always be used if it's the same letter, but for example someone once told me I should say "ad Edimburgo" rather than "a Edimburgo" and I'm sure I've read and heard it in similar phrases, so I gathered that it was optional in these cases... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5208 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 51 of 138 25 March 2014 at 11:33am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Fairly intense few days...
Thursday: was at a party where all three of my target languages were being spoken. I know I've been guilty in the past (if any of you have read my last year's log you'll know what I mean) of often thinking that the grass is greener on the other side and that Spanish people are so much more helpful and friendly than speakers of other languages. And to a large extent it's accurate, but this night I met a couple of... counter-examples, let's say. There was one guy who refused to speak a word of Spanish as soon as a non-native speaker was within earshot, and he was giving the whole condescension routine of "oh so you speak a little bit of Spanish?" and answering everything in English to a girl who as far as I could tell spoke excellent Spanish with a great accent and if I remember correctly has spent time living in Madrid. It's refreshing to see that these things happen to other people too: sometimes I feel like it's just me and my amazing ability to attract bizarre experiences that I talked about a few posts ago. On that subject, there was also a Spanish girl who was going out of her way to exclude me from the conversation with her and a couple of my friends, and whenever I opened my mouth she stared me down as if to say "why the hell are you still here?" which was a bit unnerving. Saturday: Another university meetup. Had a good chat in French and then later on some Italian and a little Spanish. Both times I felt that, while I was generally speaking well, a lot of words just weren't on the tip of my tongue as they usually are and I was having to search a lot. Just tiredness as usual probably. On the plus side I wasn't having much trouble switching between Italian and Spanish. Sunday: there was an Italian meetup on. Similar feeling of struggling to find words sometimes but I think it was just because the conversations were quite diverse and I was looking for vocabulary that's not exactly everyday. Last night: usual meetup. Met a couple of Italians so I spoke with them, but the other people in the group wanted to speak English so we had to compromise a bit. Then there was the slightly strange experience of meeting one of the unreliable language partners from my summer of unreliable language partners a year and a half ago. One of the cases where we met up a couple of times, it went well, then they stopped answering my messages. Absurdly the conversation with her and a guy I know turned to the subject of language exchanges and how most people just aren't serious, which she joined in without a trace of irony. We were both trying to be polite and all but the situation was a bit awkward. She even asked me if I had found anyone else to practise with. Also, I'm probably going to put this one down to the catch-all excuse of tiredness too, but recently my conversational skills, not that they were ever great in the first place, seem to have just disappeared. I feel like I have nothing worthwhile to say and my conversations have been really generic and banal. Several people have turned or walked away from me mid-conversation and justifiably so. It makes meetups a bit unproductive because why would someone speak to me when they could speak to the far more interesting and chatty guy a couple of seats down from me? There's the old comment in the language learning community that being able to speak several languages doesn't mean much if you have nothing interesting to say in any of them, and I feel like that's been me recently. I've probably been focusing a bit too much on languages lately and I need to find a bit more balance. Edited by garyb on 25 March 2014 at 11:35am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| suzukaze Triglot Senior Member Italy bit.ly/1bGm459 Joined 4603 days ago 186 posts - 254 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese | Message 52 of 138 29 March 2014 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I'm very glad you find my corrections useful :) I always fear to sound too meticulous when I correct someone :P
Sometimes people from Northern Italy make fun of the extensive use of passato remoto made by people from Southern Italy, this may push young people to adopt the same speaking patterns of their non-Southern friends.
The "d eufonica" usage rule I told you is given by the Accademia della Crusca, which is an organisation that decides how people should speak and write correct Italian. It has similar functions to that of the Real Academia Española for Spanish and the Académie française for French which you may be already familiar with. Unfortunately in most cases only people who use Italian for professional purposes (writers, translators, proofreaders, editors...) know the Accademia's rules. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5208 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 53 of 138 31 March 2014 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks again; don't worry, there's no such thing as too meticulous :). I wasn't aware of the Accademia della Crusca (well, I have incidentally ended up on their site a couple of times when reading about the language, but never looked into what it actually was) so I suppose that's the place to go if I want to know the "proper" answer to something!
Some news: I'm going to Italy for a week in May! I had been considering it for a while but I've now started making proper plans. So I suppose I'll be focusing on Italian for the next month and half, although that won't make much difference as I'd say it's already my main focus. And, last minute as always, my 20 sentences for the Team Forza March challenge of writing to practise a grammar point. In my case, passato remoto. So it would be appropriate to write a bit about my life and the places I've lived. I'm not sure how easy it is to correct (you either get the verb form right or you don't, and I have a dictionary...) but corrections in the rest of the phrases are of course welcome. 1. I miei genitori si conobbero in Grecia, ma decisero di venire a vivere in Scozia, la paese della mia madre. 2. Vissi in un piccolo paese fino all'età di 11 anni, quando la mia famiglia si trasferì alla città vicina, Stirling. 3. In passato, Stirling fu una città molto importante, dove ci furono alcune battaglie famose contro gli Inglesi. 4. Forse quella più famosa sarebbe la battaglia di Bannockburn, in cui gli Scozzesi vinsero malgrado l'esercito inglese molto più grande. 5. Si dice che gli scozzesi furono furbi e progettarono un buon piano! 6. Fecero pure un film famosissimo sull'argomento della storia scozzese, Braveheart; è un buon film però storicamente non è molto accurato! 7. Una volta, guardammo questo film in classe... il professore premise che non si tratta della vera storia! 8. A scuola elementare studiammo molto la storia, e come parte di quegli studi, andammo a vistare il castello. 9. Cominciai la scuola superiore quando avevo 12 anni (qui non c'è la scuola media). 10. Avrei potuto studiare l'italiano a scuola, ma scelsi invece il francese. 11. Studiai il francese per alcuni anni però ne imparai veramente poco! 12. Dopo la scuola, decisi di venire a Edimburgo a studiare. 13. L'università di Edimburgo è abbastanza antica: fu fondata quasi cinquecento anni fa. 14. Mio fratello invece andò a studiare a Glasgow, una città che diventò importante al tempo della rivoluzione industriale. 15. Anch'io visitai l'università di Glasgow e mi piacque, ma pensai che quella d'Edimburgo fosse migliore per studiare l'informatica. And a few imaginary questions to practise the second-person ("tu" and "voi") forms, since they almost never come up in books etc.: 16. Quali materie studiasti a scuola? 17. Quando arrivaste in Gran Bretagna? 18. E per qual motivo decideste di venire qui? 19. ...e perché sceglieste questa città in particolare? 20. Quanti anni avevi quando finisti di studiare? Edited by garyb on 31 March 2014 at 1:47pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| suzukaze Triglot Senior Member Italy bit.ly/1bGm459 Joined 4603 days ago 186 posts - 254 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese | Message 54 of 138 31 March 2014 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Thanks a lot :)
Yes, the Accademia della Crusca is one of the most accurate online sources for Italian.
That's great, have you already decided where would you like to go?
<il paese di mia madre>.
<si trasferì a Stirling, una città vicina> or <nella vicina città di Stirling>. You could also say <paesino> instead of <piccolo paese>.
You can replace the second instance of <essere> with <ebbero luogo> so that you don't use the same verb. And you don't need the comma after <In passato>.
<quella più famosa è> and <l'esercito inglese era molto più grande>.
Depending on what you want to say: <sulla storia scozzese: Bravehart. É un buon...> if you refer to Scottish history in general or <su questo episodio della storia scozzese> if you refer to the battle of Bannockburn.
<Una volta lo guardammo> and <che non si trattava della storia vera>.
<Alle elementari> or <alla scuola elementare>. If you refer to history in general then you say <studiammo molto storia>, if you are referring to Scottish history say <studiammo molto la storia scozzese> or if you refer to this particular event <studiammo molto la battaglia di Bannockburn>. Regarding the second part of your sentence I'd say <e il corso incluse anche una visita al castello di (add the castle name here :))>.
<studiare Italiano> and you can use either <ma> or <invece>, but not both of them because it's redundant. However the word order differs: with <ma> you have <ma scelsi...> whereas with <invece> you can have either <scelsi invece...> or <invece scelsi...>.
<Studiai francese>.
<Dopo la scuola> is usually used when talking about what you do when your lessons are over so its better to use <Finito il liceo>.
<studiare informatica>, you don't need the article in this case because you are referring to computer science in general. Edited by suzukaze on 31 March 2014 at 5:40pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5208 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 55 of 138 01 April 2014 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Thanks again for the corrections, very helpful as always!
One question regarding "studiare Italiano" vs. "studiare l'italiano": I'm sure I've heard both, and on Google I find more results for the latter with the article, and similar for "studiare (il) francese". Am I right in thinking that both are grammatically correct but they have different shades of meaning the form without the article is better for my examples? I understand the difference between "studiare storia" (history in general) and "studiare la storia scozzese" (Scottish history in particular) but I'm less clear when the only difference is the article. I should probably open my advanced grammar book at some point, it probably has a lot of the answers to all these things I'm not sure about and would help me clean up all these little mistakes in my Italian. I worked through a similar book for French last year and it helped a lot. As for my trip to Italy... I'm flying to Pisa and my vague plan is to spend a couple of days around there and Tuscany, then going to Bologna for a few days as I have some friends there. I'm considering a day in Rome too but haven't decided whether it's worth the effort yet. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| agantik Triglot Senior Member France Joined 4636 days ago 217 posts - 335 votes Speaks: French*, English, Italian Studies: German, Norwegian | Message 56 of 138 02 April 2014 at 7:28am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Enjoy your trip to Italy (I wish it were me !). Your sentences in the passato remoto about your family were a
good idea for practice. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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