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Going back to Europe TAC 2014 DE|FR|日本語 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5184 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 33 of 142 03 February 2014 at 8:41am | IP Logged |
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I should have been reading from day one but your new log fell between the cracks. Glad I found it thanks to
your mentioning you were back doing Japanese.. (And French and German heh). So I guess I'm going for N2 in December. What text books would you recommend? I'm doing kanji in context already. Which reminds me since you've got a lot of experience with it. Do you anki all the vocabulary or just stuff from the workbooks? I'm currently doing the vocab only. I'd like a good textbook targeted at N2 level grammar if there's one you like. I might just do みんなの日本語 if you don't know anything better although I don't know if it's more N3 level than N2. I'm glad you appreciate the awesomeness of reading when it comes to foreign languages :). And it drives me crazy how hard it is to get into Japanese the way I can with a language with an alphabet. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5982 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 34 of 142 03 February 2014 at 9:35am | IP Logged |
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I would recommend starting from the workbooks in KIC and using the reference book as a
reference book. And don't waste time Ankiing things in the reference book you can already read/understand! For reading practice, either Unicom or New Kanzen Master are good. Unicom has good explanations of expressions used in each text so works really well for intensive reading practice whether you do the exam or not. Kanzen Master has more targeted advice on exam technique and loads of practice passages (something like 30 example questions and 70 practice ones) so is really good value for money. For grammar, I'd recommend Kanzen Master again. And JOI but I know you're already there! I know you asked about textbooks, but it's really important to watch a lot of TV and start reading books too. N2 is roughly equivalent to B2 passive skills so native materials become much more important (and accessible) at this level. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5982 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 35 of 142 03 February 2014 at 11:52pm | IP Logged |
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So I started reading my science book for 3rd graders on Saturday...and finished it off tonight! Just goes to show that I have been making rather unnecessarily heavy work of reading Japanese. Just need to pick a book up, start reading, keep reading. The rest takes care of itself. At least if it's aimed at 3rd graders...
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| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4797 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 36 of 142 06 February 2014 at 9:17pm | IP Logged |
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I found that to solve the reading problem, which I currently have due to the kanji
readings I'm still trying to learn, goes like this: 1. Read using Rikaisama/Rikaikun. Since I know Heisig, the readings stick faster. One simple example is 学習. Even though it's a relatively common word to see if you're learning Japanese, it didn't stick until I knew the meanings of the individual kanji. Of course, some kanji are so common that you automatically learn them by osmosis. But I still learn faster if I understand the kanji. I didn't even need to Anki the word. It just stuck. 2. Read children's books with no kanji/minimal kanji. It's enjoyable, doesn't stop me from learning new things as well as reinforcing known words. It could be limiting in that you're stuck with children's books until you finish a formal text like KIC/RTK 2/Basic-Intermediate Kanji, but it's amazing how useful children's materials can be for language learning, general knowledge, and the enjoyment factor. 3. Read books manga that have furigana. Problem with this is that sometimes I tend to fall in the trap of gliding over the kanji. You can remedy that by writing the kanji compound and it's reading down/Anki it and then read on without looking at the furigana. I've noticed some books/light novels/manga give you the furigana multiple times and then stop including them altogether. That could be very useful. 4. Reading subs while watching or listening to drama or anime. The subs don't have readings but you can pick that up from the audio. Same goes for audiobooks and song lyrics. 5. Japanese tv documentaries/variety shows/news have lots of captions that go along with the speech, but that could be kind of difficult and more suited for advanced learners, mainly in part due to the speed of speech and the irregularity of the appearance of the captions. NHK ETV, however, has programs for young children with pretty easy captions to follow. For me, what worked best when I was starting, and at my current level, are both options 2 and 4. Option 3 is good, but I glide over the kanji. I've yet to read fast enough for option 4. Option 1 is useful when reading online, but my eyes tire after a long time staring at the computer screen, or when I just want to pick a physical book and read. Of course, it can all be tricky and a bit of a headache getting hold of these resources. Not to mention overwhelming. But I love hoarding books and audio so there :D I wish the day would come when I could just stare a kanji in the face and know the correct reading without any help :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4797 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 37 of 142 06 February 2014 at 9:47pm | IP Logged |
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One ting I forgot to mention, it's easier to learn a reading if you encounter the
compounds in context, and form, how should I put it, an emotional connection or a memory. For example, I'd be watching a show about the samurai, so of course, 武士（ぶし） would stick. Less so with isolated words, or words in random sentences. I guess if I use a kanji reading text, it would probably be more of a supplement than a primary learning source. Of course, relying mostly on encountering the reading in the wild can be harder to gauge as opposed to knowing how many character reading you'd be learning in a book. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5982 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 38 of 142 06 February 2014 at 10:37pm | IP Logged |
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I'm definitely there with options 2 and 3, I just think that I was getting bored, at an intellectual level, with reading children's books and comics the whole time. It's been so much better reading real grown-up books and real grown-up news reports in French, I can totally understand why I'd reached a block with the Japanese kids books.
Anyway, it's not that I can't read more grown-up material in Japanese, just that it's so much more of an effort. There is definitely a certain amount of critical mass of language knowledge required to make extensive reading worthwhile, and while I've hit that level for most children's books, it's still tough to find something both adult and readable. I will get there though. I also can't help feeling like I'm somehow missing out if I don't know how to pronounce an unknown kanji word, even if it doesn't actually impede my comprehension of the text. I just need to not let this put me off reading any more. On a slightly different note, this week I've started rewatching Nodame Cantabile. This was one of the first dramas I ever watched and I fell in love with it at the time. I rewatched it a few times but always had to rely on subs for comprehension. Anyway, it must be a good couple of years since I last watched it. This time I put it on with no subtitles and despite missing a few chunks of particularly fast or slangy dialogue, I was able to understand a reasonable amount. This in itself shouldn't be a huge surprise, given the comprehension level I have of other shows I've watched more recently. But it was a kind of weird feeling. On the one hand, it's a show and a story that I am very familiar with. On the other, it's something that I had previously only really experienced through the English subs. So rewatching without subtitles felt like I was viewing the show in a totally different light. The obvious difference (at least given that it's Japanese) was a much more intuitive understanding of the social relationships between the characters based on the language they used. But there was something more subtle going on as well. But also, my memory of how little I could understand the Japanese originally, compared with my experience of understanding the show this week, really hit home how much progress I've really made with this language over the years. That was a nice feeling. I guess next steps are somehow cracking the particularly fast and slangy bits... Edited by g-bod on 06 February 2014 at 10:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5982 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 39 of 142 06 February 2014 at 10:53pm | IP Logged |
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Another top tip for reading Japanese - the NHK News website (that's regular news, not easy news) seems to dumb down its Japanese much in the same way that BBC News website dumbs down its English. It's less kanji dense and more repetitive than a typical news article, and is written in です・ます style avoiding a lot of typical newspaper grammar forms.
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| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4797 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 40 of 142 07 February 2014 at 2:41am | IP Logged |
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I feel your pain with readings. I too just can't seem to skip a word without using the
correct reading, which is why I rely so much on matching audio. Unfortunately the jump between adult materials and children's is huge, as expected, and it gets wearisome having to look up every single thing. But I approach it looking at the full half of the glass :) I did notice the NHK news site looks certainly more doable than, say, Yomiuri Online. Boy do I get lost there! :D 1 person has voted this message useful |
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