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Radioclare’s TAC log 2014 (*jäŋe/*ledús) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4584 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 489 of 522 08 December 2014 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
:) If you have a look at any of the clips I would be interested to know how easy you find them to understand. I really struggled for the first 50 or so episodes and I feel like everyone speaks unnecessarily fast! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 490 of 522 08 December 2014 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
It does touch the velum in Russian. The German/Dutch sound (not sure about the Scottish one to be honest) is usually in modern speech further back and hits the uvula. The reason they are described as velar is because this is the official standard sound (if we are talking Ach-laut of course). Therefore Russian is generally in the middle, but approaching it with h is the other end of the spectrum. The problem here is that in Dutch (and I think also in German if we consider the Ach-laut) x (velar) and χ (uvular) are actually allophones of each other and can both be realised in the same spot without problems. Which variant people use is regional - even if you do not speak dialect this sound is one that always changes between regions. According to the wiki: the symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this (the uvular, that is - red.) sound is ⟨χ⟩, or in broad transcription ⟨x⟩ although the latter technically represents a velar pronunciation. This is what causes trouble, because that is why in IPA x and χ are often equated when they are indeed clearly different sounds. However they play the same phonological role in both Dutch and German, but in Russian only x exists, not χ. So if your German ch sounds different from the Russian x, that is as should be. However in transcriptions from Russian to German or Dutch ch is the correct transcription because the velar falls within the allophonic region for that phoneme, whereas this never happens with h.
Here I agree. In a transcription from English, kh makes no sense whatsoever and h is a much better alternative (it is after all the closest sound in phonology to Russian x and identical to the Croatian h). Kh sounds like a very strongly aspirated k to me, or a uvular consonant. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 491 of 522 08 December 2014 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | |||||
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But then we basically agree :D I don't mind the ch quite as much as kh, since Polish and Czech also use ch.
Kh in English (or Finnish tbh) just looks like a "weird exotic sound we can't pronounce" to me. But Russian isn't Arabic and English&Finnish speakers can get away with a normal h just fine. (according to Chung the Croatian h is different from Russian, though. But I honestly don't know, need to listen more closely) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 492 of 522 08 December 2014 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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My Russian самоучитель (for Serbian) however states that it is identical to Russian
x. From what I hear, it's rather more x, and rather less glottal (thus less h). But I would equally hazard a guess that these are certainly allophones in Croatian and so the pronunciation may vary among speakers. Edited by tarvos on 08 December 2014 at 5:43pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7157 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 493 of 522 08 December 2014 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
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To be honest, my ears pick up more h than x with BCMS/SC h / x. I think that I need my ears checked out.
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 494 of 522 08 December 2014 at 8:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Go with yours - mine aren't too attuned to BCMS.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6598 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 495 of 522 08 December 2014 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@Chung, what do you hear in Ukrainian? And how much Russian listening have you done?
@Radioclare, how do you pronounce it in Croatian? BTW, wiki says Serbo-Croatian uses the same sound as other Slavic languages. (I think this kinda confirms my idea that in general an English/German h is a better approximation than a German ch) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4584 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 496 of 522 08 December 2014 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm afraid I haven't followed all of today's discussions and can't use all the technical words you guys do! I tend to find the Croatian h sounds slightly different when pronounced by different speakers and sometimes depending on its position in the word and what it is followed/preceded by. My attempt to pronounce it is generally quite a breathy h when it's at the start of a word, eg. hvala but slightly harsher when it's at the end of a word like 'bih'. (Do I win a prize for the least technical description ever?!) I was listening to Croatian music on the way home from work tonight and trying to listen out for the letter h in the lyrics. If you have a listen to this song there are some quite clear examples in the chorus at 0.55 and 1.42 (Dao bih sve) and also in the final verse at 2.28 (i velikih hrvata). Having listened to it several times on repeat tonight I think perhaps my h's don't have enough kick to them and require some more work! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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