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Wann bist du geboren? (German) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages |  | |
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5785 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 57 of 71 17 January 2014 at 12:43am | IP Logged | |||||
Does this not work? Wann waren die Läden geöffnet, damals als du in Berlin warst? Edited by Random review on 17 January 2014 at 12:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| MarcoLeal Groupie Portugal Joined 4836 days ago 58 posts - 104 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 58 of 71 17 January 2014 at 1:03am | IP Logged | |||||
Well, if my interpretation of "Wann sind die Läden geöffnet" is correct (waiting for the confirmation of a native speaker on that one) then I would say no, it doesn't work. The "damals als du in Berlin warst" does relocate you to the past but the nature of the question doesn't really change. To me it still sounds like somebody asking at what times the shops usually opened in those days/years/etc. I spent/lived in Berlin. So yet again there seems to be no suggestion of a complete action, of a state, of a Zustand. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5785 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 59 of 71 17 January 2014 at 1:14am | IP Logged | |||||
I must have misunderstood your point. I also understand that sentence as asking what time the shops were usually open back then. I thought your point was that you couldn't think of a "wann" question using this structure and I thought that might be a counterexample. OK, if you don't like habituals, how about this: Das Fenster war schon geöffnet als er die Zigarette geraucht hat. Now I can ask you: wann war das Fenster geöffnet? Als er die Zigarette geraucht hat? Your stretching my German to breaking point ha ha, so no doubt I'm making mistakes. My point is that just because it is difficult for us learners to think of contexts in which the "sein-passiv" can be used in questions with "wann", doesn't mean it can't be used in this way. I'd wager that natives and advanced speakers can easily come up with examples less contrived than mine. I do agree, though, that usually when you ask for a time, you have some concrete occurrence in mind (as opposed to a resultant state). Edited by Random review on 17 January 2014 at 1:22am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4846 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 60 of 71 17 January 2014 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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MarcoLeal is right. As I said, those geboren/begraben etc. verbs are somehow special, but I can't really explain why.
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| MarcoLeal Groupie Portugal Joined 4836 days ago 58 posts - 104 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 61 of 71 17 January 2014 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, actually after giving this some thought I came to the conclusion that I was actually kind of wrong :D
I guess the fact that the sein-passiv implies (when used in statements) that an action has been completed in the past made me think that a question like "Wann sind die Läden geöffnet?" should also be dealing with the past. In reality, however, the sein-passiv is a Zustandspassiv, meaning that the focus really is on the state an object was placed as result of the actions of a subject and not on when that happened. For that you have the werden-passiv. So yeah, "Wann sind die Läden geöffnet?" does lead to an answer like "Die Läden sind von 8 Uhr morgens bis 6 Uhr abends geöffnet" but that's ok! That's how it is supposed to work because that really is the time span in which the Läden are in the geöffnet state and states is what the sein-passiv deals with. "Wann sind die Läden geöffnet worden?", however, asks about the process and so it is natural to answer it with "Um 8 Uhr" because that's when the process occured. In short, I was assuming both questions had to lead to the same answer but they don't. Why then can't we ask "Wann sind Sie geboren?" without an implied worden? Because using the logic above the answer to this question would be something like "1953-?", that is, someone's entire lifespan, because that's the time period in which that person is in the alive-state. That's, however, not the info you're looking for when you ask that. What you actually want to know is in which date the process of giving birth to the other person happened so you need werden. Edited by MarcoLeal on 17 January 2014 at 5:06pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Random review Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5785 days ago 781 posts - 1310 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German | Message 62 of 71 17 January 2014 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I still think you can ask for a time for states. I agree about "geboren", Marco, that's what prompted me to
start this thread in the first place, nevertheles I still think you can ask when a state occured (when were you ill?) and therefore don't see why the kind of states expressed by the "sein-passiv" should be an exception to this, it just doesn't ring true for me. Were my attempted example sentences no good, then? My gut tells me that it just seems that way because appropriate contexts are rare. Unfortunately it seems my German isn't yet good enough to demonstrate this. Were my attempted example sentences no good, then? Edit: just to be clear what I'm tryingto say, I just have this feeling that there's nothing ungrammatical about "wann" questions with the "sein-passiv", just that appropriate contexts are hard to find because with "wann" we are usually more interested in the action that led to the resultant state (and therefore a true passive with werden). Edited by Random review on 17 January 2014 at 8:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| MarcoLeal Groupie Portugal Joined 4836 days ago 58 posts - 104 votes Speaks: Portuguese* | Message 63 of 71 17 January 2014 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
I will mostly repeat what I said in my previous post but maybe what I mean will be more clear if rephrased as follows: Of course you can ask the time for states. That's my point exactly. You can ask between which two points in time a state was true (sein passiv) and you get an answer that is an interval of time which, needless to say, can be in the past, present or future. You can also ask when did the process that lead to that state take place (werden passiv) and you get answer which is a point in time. That's why it makes sense to answer "Wann sind die Läden geöffnet?" (question using sein-passiv) with "Von 8 bis 6" (i.e., an interval in which the state is valid). It also explains why "Wann bist du geboren?" is not exact if you just want know the person's birthdate. If no worden is implied in that question then it is in the sein passiv, which deals with states. So what that question is actually asking is in which interval of time are you in a geboren state (i.e., in a state of having been given birth to) and the answer for that is of course your entire life. So worden needs to be used to specify that what is being asked is the moment in which the process of giving birth to you was finished, i.e., your date of birth. I'm not sure I understand what exception you're talking about. This works even for states that are not defined as the passive voice of some verb. Your example with ill works just as well. When were you ill? Wann warst du krank? (idea of state) I was ill for the last two days/last week/last month, that is, I was ill in the time interval defined by the last two days/the last week/the last month. When did you fall ill? Wann wurdest du krank? (idea of process) I fell ill after eating dinner last night, that is, it was after that point in time that I entered the ill-state. EDIT: I think I understand now what was confusing you. Please ignore the posts before my previous one in which I put this hypothesis forward that there was anything exceptional about sein. As I mentioned at the start of that last post I was making wrong assumptions about the passives. Edited by MarcoLeal on 17 January 2014 at 8:45pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Doitsujin Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5322 days ago 1256 posts - 2363 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 64 of 71 17 January 2014 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@Random review: Your examples were fine.
IMHO, much of the confusion is probably caused by the fact that, as in English, both active and passive participles can become adjectives in German. I.e. some constructions with sein and Partizip II aren't Zustandspassiv constructions at all. Example 1: a) Er ist gefragt worden. = He has been asked. [regular passive] b) Er ist gefragt. = He is much in demand. [sein + Partizip II/adjective] Example 2: a) Der Film is abgedreht worden. = The movie has finished shooting. [regular passive] b) Der Regisseur is völlig abgedreht. = The director is completely nuts. [sein + Partizip II/adjective] In example 1b, you can add "worden," but the meaning changes, however, in example 2b, you cannot add "worden" at all, because "abdrehen" can only be used with inanimate objects. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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