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"Just tell me what to do" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6831 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes  2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 1 of 37 22 January 2014 at 5:47am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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This topic is specifically addressed to those members who have taught themselves at least one L2 to a fluent level (minimum B2 in all aspects - speaking, writing, listening, reading).
Background: Today a good friend of mine told me that his work in planning to transfer him and his family to Europe in summer 2015 (~18 months from now). He has to learn the local language for both professional and social purposes. I told him about the HTLAL website and how there are many different language-learning styles, etc, etc. It was a fun conversation. But in the end he said to me (I'm paraphrasing), "Look, I'm not going to research the many ways of learning a language. I work a lot and have a wife and kids. I know you're into languages. You know me well, and I trust your judgment. Just tell me what to do". I said, "Just tell you what to do?! Wow. Well, I've studied many languages, but I haven't learned one to fluency yet, so let me get back to you in a couple days after I consult with some people who know what they're talking about." I'm not telling you the language, because I don't want to narrow the responses to only those who have learned that L2. But let's just say that my buddy is a native English speaker, and the L2 he's tasked to learn is a major European language (Romance or Germanic). And he HAS to learn this language. On his own (though the company will give him a bit of money for this task but nothing major). My Request from you, dear friends: If you were him, knowing what you know about learning an L2 to fluency, how would YOU attack achieving professional and social fluency in ~18 months? I specifically want YOUR protocol (perhaps in numbered or bullet point form). I know this isn't an easy topic, but I think the results of this thread could prove very useful for other people besides my friend. My goal here is to present him with several possible plans based on your feedback. Assumptions: 1. He will spend 1-2 hours per day actively learning the L2. 2. He will commit to whatever plan he decides on (and make whatever adjustments necessary depending on his progression). 3. He speaks only English and doesn't know very much about the L2. Just a few basic phrases. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6603 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 2 of 37 22 January 2014 at 7:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I don't think it makes sense to hide the language from us. There are great language-specific resources like Destinos, French in action or Deutsche Welle, and specific caveats for each language too. Also, tons of posts in the advice center are based on learning a different language but encountering the same difficulties. Not to mention that if it's Spanish, he'll have much more opportunities than with any other language.
It will also be more productive if you tell us a bit about your friend, his strong sides, what things you're fairly sure he won't do anyway, a bit about his job: what sort of professional purposes he needs the L2 for and even simply how much driving or other kinds of dead time his job involves. etc etc etc. He said it himself that YOU know him well. If you don't trust your own judgement, you also need to give us this information. Don't forget his language learning experience too: he has next to no knowledge of this particular language, but has he ever tried something else before? What problems did he have? Was there anything he liked, anything that worked? Edited by Serpent on 22 January 2014 at 2:32pm 15 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4628 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 3 of 37 22 January 2014 at 9:34am | IP Logged | ||||||||
In what way? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4150 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 4 of 37 22 January 2014 at 11:29am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I teach French and study Spanish - both Romance languages - and yet I would give slightly different advice (and, of course, resources) for each. While there are some general language learning suggestions, I do think you'll get much richer responses if you let us know what language he's learning. I'll share my ideas whether he's learning German or Spanish, but my response will be different.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 4003 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 5 of 37 22 January 2014 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
1. He lives in the US. (In almost all parts of the US, excepting a few specific parts of the Eastern seaboard like Maine where French is a more widely-spoken second language or some parts of Louisiana) Spanish is very, very dominant as a second language compared to everything else in national terms. 2. A big social boost. There are a lot of native speakers or immigrants to practice with. A lot of the other languages, not really. Hard to find native speakers in, say, Icelandic in the US. You can do it; but it is harder. 3. In some specific areas of the workforce Spanish will help you out professionally. (Health care for example. Some recruiters specifically look for physicians that speak Spanish in addition to English. To be fair, I've seen job offers for Chinese speakers too--so it isn't limited to Spanish)The data does say that in nation-wide terms, knowing a foreign language in the US doesn't really add much financially to the person that has learned 1+ foreign languages. 4. Travel in the Western Hemisphere. The other options are French (in Quebec); but I don't know of many Americans that learn French to go to Quebec. Not hating on Quebec, but most Americans here learn the French from France. Just saying what happens. Or Portuguese, which is studied very little in the US. (Not even on the list of top 10 languages for college students) FYI, Spanish college students are 4 times greater than French, the number two language. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0905275.html Of course, the OP should learn what they are motivated to do since you have to enjoy the ride to get to your destination. Edit: Sorry, I realize that since he is moving to "Europe" (and not knowing anything else), I would probably pick French or German, whatever he likes better. But probably French. Does he know "roughly" where he will be? Central Europe? Closer to Russia or closer to the West side? Does he care if he will be able to use it without too much effort when returning to the US? Spanish, as much as I love it, isn't nearly as influential in most metrics as French, German, or English in Europe. My list for him: French>German>>Spanish>Rus sian>>Italian>Russian>>>Polish, etc, etc. Edited by culebrilla on 22 January 2014 at 1:53pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Nuuskamuikkunen Triglot Newbie Finland Joined 4322 days ago 21 posts - 43 votes Speaks: Finnish*, Polish, English | Message 6 of 37 22 January 2014 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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My protocol, if I were him:
1) I would get to know a bit of the language in an intuitive way with Pimsleur - from the local library, of course. This step only if he has time to "waste". 2) I would find the latest Assimil course for the language - hoping there is one in English for that language - but study it my way: no passive and active phase, but "active" from the beginning. One or two lessons a day, each lesson repeated on two consecutive days, maybe the second day writing down the dialogue. Both days translate from English into the target language. Be sure to listen to each lesson many times, also in advance. 2bis) Get also: a basic handbook of the language that goes also into its grammar, or a grammar, not to learn by heart, but to get a feel of the language's structure, to answer doubts and to read interesting tidbits. No need to get a dictionary, internet is good for that. 2ter) Find people from the target country to chat with - not, at the beginning, in the target language, but people who can both answer your questions, correct your sentences and keep you motivated. 3) Before reaching the end of Assimil (B1 whatever they write on their cover) start reading in the target language (The Little Prince for example, or news websites) or listening to audiobooks. Start also studying in more detail, now that you have a good grasp of the language, the grammar you bought earlier. Chat or visit forums in the target language. 4) Be sure to visit the target country as often as only possible - I know, not so easy from the USA. Nothing else has such a motivational value for your further study of the language. Remember though that the more advanced you are the more you will get out of such a trip. *** Generally speaking, I would suggest to start with an "intuitive" and audio based method (whether it is Pimsleur or Assimil focusing on the audio or some other course) even for visual learners like me. This might make progress slower in the beginning, but I am convinced that it will be worth in the long term. Then you can add more traditional study from the books, which might not be very trendy nowadays, but is still the best way to learn maths, history or languages (in my opinion). I would focus quite much on correct pronunciation at the beginning, though I am not one of those fundamentalists who don't start studying other parts of the language before they have pronunciation nailed down. This because I think pronunciation can get better in the months and years of study and you can unlearn bad habits; besides, I am convinced you can only learn correct pronunciation when you already know some of the language and what you are pronouncing. I don't think he needs a private teacher or to go to a language course. Self-study with good materials is the best way. This said, a language course does wonders in adding motivation, and it also helps you develop your production, especially if you get to converse with the teacher or the other students. A final note: I might be generalizing, but I fear American schools don't focus as much on grammar as some European countries. Besides English is FROM SOME POINTS OF VIEW quite simple in its grammar (verb conjugation, lack of cases, gender). Therefore I suggest your friend to learn some grammar: that is, what is a subject, object, etc.; and that what is important is the function of a word or of a group of words, not the word-by-word translation: "by car", "because of that", "with a tool". 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5538 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 7 of 37 22 January 2014 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
OK, so we're looking at a Western European language, related to English, using the Roman alphabet, and between 550 and 1100 hours of study. Does he have a smartphone? A Kindle? Is he competent with computers? Can he afford to spend $50 to $150 per month on native media once he reaches an appropriate stage? Since his family will be moving, too, can he play the radio / hog the television a lot? Anyway, not knowing a lot about him, here's my recommendation. Note that this is only one possible approach that works for me. For alternative approaches, see the wiki. 1. Get an internet cable package in the target language. For French, try VoilaTV. Leave it on as much as possible. Rationale: He'll get used to the sounds of the language, and the images will provide lots of context. Plus, he'll discover cool TV shows in the TL. When TV is impossible, radio is OK, but not nearly as good, because he can't use the pictures to puzzle stuff out. 2. Get the appropriate Assimil course. Do one lesson per day, 5 to 7 days per week. For each lesson, listen 8 to 12 times, reading the L1 and L2 in various combinations. The goal is to be able to understand 95% of the L2 text by the end of the lesson, and at least 75% of the audio. This means he should be able to shut his eyes, listen to the lesson, and "understand" quite a bit of it, all by relying on his memory to make sense of the sounds. If a lesson is hard, move on anyway. 3. If your friend is a big-picture person, he should buy the Dover Essential Grammar for the language, to be read casually whenever he's curious. (He can also just ignore it if he's not interested.) 4. Your friend should set up Anki and either AnkiDroid or the for-pay iPhone app, and get them syncing. And then, anywhere from 2 to 5 times per Assimil lesson, your friend should pick out an interesting sentence, and make an easy "cloze card" in the following format:
This will generate two "fill in the blank" cards in Anki. He should set Anki's leech threshold to 4, new cards per day to no more than 10 (for the first month at least), and review cards whenever he has a spare moment. 5. If you friend is interested, he should get an audio course to supplement Assimil: Either Michel Thomas or Pimsleur or FSI. Also, if something like Destinos or French in Action is available, consider that, too. Use these as supplements to use up the extra 30 to 90 minutes per day once Assimil is done. 6. By somewhere around Assimil lesson 30, your friend should start looking for interesting native materials: graphic novels, really easy books, TV box sets, whatever. Buy a half dozen things that look really interesting, and see which is easiest to decipher. By Assimil lesson 75 (2.5 months), your friend should be able to understand a fair bit. Don't stress about not understanding everything, and cheat outrageously—he can read translations of his favorite books, use parallel texts, or whatever makes things easier. Rationale: This will get your friend used to the language in it's raw, natural state, and provide a bridge to the intermediate levels. Plus it's fun to look at pretty pictures in another language and to try to guess what things might mean. :-) 7. When your friend finishes Assimil, he can go for a multi-prong approach: - Sign up for the Super Challenge, or something similarly epic. In other words: read and watch, and do a lot of it. Instead of movies, watch entire seasons of TV series, because it's a lot easier at first and will help make lots of progress. - Write 100 words per day for 30 days on lang-8. - Work with either a Skype-based tutor or do lots of language exchanges. In all things, remember rapp's wise advice:
Given 550 to 1100 hours, this should get your friend to anywhere from a strong B1 to strong B2. At this level, he should expect to be able to carry on conversations about most subjects, although intellectual stuff may not be terribly polished. He should be able to read reasonably comfortably, with decent-to-solid understanding, and to be able to follow many television shows. He should be able, just for example, to get household utilities hooked up even if nobody speaks English. Just as an example. :-) Anyway, like I said, that's how I'd do it. But see rapp's advice: What matters is being seriously engaged with the language on a constant basis. If something's unpleasant, or if you've done it for a month without any progress, do something else instead. 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6603 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 8 of 37 22 January 2014 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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He knows which country he's going to and what language he needs to learn, the OP just thought that withholding this information would lead to more unbiased advice.
For now I will just say that in my opinion, with such a time constraint Anki or another SRS is a must, unless he's "allergic" to them. I'd even say unless they metaphorically give him an anaphylactic shock - otherwise chances are he can find something that works for him, like a specific card format or maybe Memrise for example. And then there's the attitude issue. His whole family is moving abroad - the language should just become a part of their life, not something to set aside the time *away from the family* for. Start with music, that's the easiest way to practise with the less enthusiastic family members. And the language is probably available on lyricstraining too. He doesn't need to give up on his family - they all (but especially he) just need to spend less time doing things in English. How young are his kids? It's probably a good idea to get L2 cartoons appropriate for their age and watch them together. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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