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"Just tell me what to do" | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Advice Center |  | |
| AML Senior Member United States Joined 6831 days ago 323 posts - 426 votes  2 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: Modern Hebrew, German, Spanish | Message 9 of 37 22 January 2014 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | ||
I apologize for not making it clear that this post is less about my friend and more about you. What would YOU, Serpent, do if you had to learn one of French/Spanish/German to comprehensive fluency in 18 months? Forget about my friend. His story was just motivation for me to ask, perhaps too generally, what would YOU GUYS, the experts, do to learn a major European language, that has tons of materials, literature, music, tv, movies, (everything you could want), in 18 months knowing that you had to move there and function fluently in every way? I don't want to know what people in general do. I know what people in general do. I want to know YOUR specific protocol to conquer, ok I'll just tell you, German. :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6603 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 10 of 37 22 January 2014 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | ||
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What I would do is quite irrelevant given that I started German over 10 years ago, Spanish something like 4 years ago and French is something I'd only consider learning in its written form because I hate the sound of it. And I have a background in linguistics and also learned English as a second language, even if it's my only fluent Germanic language for now :/ We can't just discard our experience, because you do need to make mistakes and wander to find your right way to learn a language.
I will think of it some more :) But even a good language learning book should tell you about several ways to learn, not just one. Have you read that pdf about 7 successful learners, btw? Or Boris Shekhtman's book? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4713 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 11 of 37 22 January 2014 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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I agree with Serpent - situations are not ceteris paribus, almost never.
If I had to learn them to fluency, Spanish is the only relevant example - and I'd work through one coursebook and read a lot of stuff. Not much more than that. Once I'd get a bit confident I'd work on speaking with a teacher, doing lots of presentations and "formulate this RIGHT" exercises. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| maydayayday Pentaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5225 days ago 564 posts - 839 votes Speaks: English*, German, Italian, SpanishB2, FrenchB2 Studies: Arabic (Egyptian), Russian, Swedish, Turkish, Polish, Persian, Vietnamese Studies: Urdu | Message 12 of 37 22 January 2014 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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+1 for what EMK said but Deutsche Wellehave some TV shows online too.
Not a cake walk but definitely doable and in the eastern part of Germany the level of English is still quite poor. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4694 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 13 of 37 22 January 2014 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | ||
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I may have missed some of this due to too much skimming, but I would worry most about
how to reach B2-level speaking in this timeframe , starting from scratch while living in the US. Surely it is *possible*, but it would require a lot of things to go right. Speaking from my experience, I know that reaching this level in both reading and listening, as well as writing (when given unlimited time and reference resources) would be theoretically pretty simple for me. Speaking doesn't seem to be mentally more difficult (maybe even less so), but it's the only one of the four skills that isn't trivial to simply practice anytime you want--ESPECIALLY if you aren't targeting Spanish (or something spoken by a close friend/family member willing to help out). As one who hasn't actually succeeded at THIS portion of the equation, I defer to others to elaborate. As for the other skills, this is pretty much what I did with French (I'm probably still just a little shy of B2 in listening, and maybe even more so in writing, but I didn't come close to focusing on French for 18 straight months, and had very little practical motivation to practice writing, both of which would make a big difference). It's similar to what emk described. I started with Assimil. At the same time, I started reading Harry Potter extensively, while simultaneously reading it in German (which I understood already) to give myself context. I listened to French radio (RFI) all the time, including in the background at work. I watched TV5MONDE, especially soccer matches, and tried to listen as best I could. I read more Harry Potter, and some Lord of the Rings. I finished Assimil. I practiced writing basic sentences, and eventually started writing a daily journal entry in French. Basically, anything I found interesting and could get motivated to do; anything that would increase my total exposure time to French. From time to time I would look up grammar tables because I was sick of seeing certain forms over and over and not knowing what they were. I actually fell off the Assimil wagon halfway through, but I continued reading and listening. When I eventually came back to Assimil, naturally it was a lot easier. The reason that I didn't stick with French intensively for the whole time was that I was also spending time doing things with Dutch, German, Italian and occasionally other languages, which wouldn't pose a problem in your hypothetical scenario. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Stelle Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Canada tobefluent.com Joined 4150 days ago 949 posts - 1686 votes Speaks: French*, English*, Spanish Studies: Tagalog | Message 14 of 37 22 January 2014 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ah, that's a very different question! This what works for me. YMMV.
1. Pick a course to get you at least to A2. For me, it was a mix of Pimsleur (first 16 lessons available for free at the library) and Duolingo. My goal was to learn for (mostly) free, so I didn't purchase any courses. But if I had more money, I'd probably read reviews and pick *one* of Assimil, Teach Yourself, Pimsleur, etc. I honestly believe that the course itself isn't too important - what's important is that you pick one, commit to it, and see it through without looking back or questioning your choice too much. For me, this is just for the very beginning of language learning. The course will get me started, but it won't "teach" me the language. 2. Listen to music. When I first started learning Spanish, I picked a song every week and sang along with it every day. Music is great for building vocabulary. 3. Start listening right away. For French I recommend French in Action; for Spanish I recommend Destinos. What's important is to find something easy enough that you can puzzle it out and slowly start building your listening comprehension. While I do see the importance of listening to the language to internalize the sounds and rhythm, I think that the most important thing is comprehensible input - and lots of it. This is where music, shows like FIA, and podcasts like Notes in Spanish come in. (I'm sure there's something similar available in German). 4. Choose a way to practice vocabulary. For me - and for many language learners - the best option is anki. I strongly recommend making your own cards, using words that you actually want to use, rather than opting for pre-made decks. I tend to build my decks in spurts; committing to X number of new words per day never really worked for me. 5. Find someone to practice with on a regular basis (several times a week, ideally). If you have more time than money, go for language exchange partners. If you have more money than time, opt for a tutor. (But it has to be a *good* tutor. Don't waste your money on someone inflexible who won't stray from their "lesson plans". I only work with tutors who are confident enough to wing it with me. If someone insists on using pre made lesson plans with me, I move on to a new tutor.) I believe in starting very early with spoken practice; others will disagree with me. 6. Get a basic grammar book (or if you don't want to spend any money, find a good website. The about guides are actually decent when it comes to grammar explanations). Whether you like to study grammar explicitly or you prefer to learn it more naturally, it's helpful to have a guide to refer to when you get confused - or when you find yourself ready for more complicated structures. 7. Read a book. Even better if you can listen to the audiobook at the same time. I personally believe in reading "easy" text rather than bludgeoning my way through stuff that's really hard. I started with side-by-side copies of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. After you've read one book, read another. Commit to daily reading - even as little as 15 minutes per day. People who read more tend to have better grammar and stronger vocabulary. 8. Find a hook. You know what you like, so work towards being able to do it. For me, the hooks are novels and TV shows. So I built my way up through very easy reading and listening until I was able to do what I loved. Once you can do what you love, then language-learning becomes much easier, since it doesn't feel like work. 9. If you want to be able to conduct business in a second language, then it's really important to hone your writing skills. (confession: I'm really bad at committing to writing on a regular basis) Write regularly, and get your work corrected by native speakers. 9. Do something every day. 10. Incorporate native materials as soon as possible. Use repetition, subtitles, side-by-side copies, or the help of a (very patient) native speaker to help make difficult material more accessible. Some people spend years doing canned course after canned course, only to find themselves completely unable to have a conversation with a real, live human being. 11. Take risks. 12. Have fun. 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| sctroyenne Diglot Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5397 days ago 739 posts - 1312 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: Spanish, Irish | Message 15 of 37 22 January 2014 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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For someone who doesn't have the time or the desire to look into designing their own
study plan, the easiest thing to say is to recommend one or a few good courses. If Michel Thomas is available for the language, I favor starting with that since you get a good overview of the structure (rather than waiting forever to be introduced to topics such as the subjunctive) though I know he's not everyone's cup of tea. The <i> [French/German/Spanish/etc] for Reading</i> books are also good for a quick overview as they're designed for graduate students to be able to pass proficiency exams for additional required languages relatively quickly and easily. For Spanish there's also <i>Madrigal's Magical Key to Spanish</i> which is great. As for courses, it's a matter of taste and how they plan on studying. If their main study time is commute time, for example, it's easier to work with an audio-based course such as Pimsleur. Assimil or FSI will take you further but either requires dedicated study time or that the student wouldn't object to having to edit and prepare audio files for learning on the go (if driving, you'd only be able to review and maybe shadow prior Assimil dialogues). For preparing to move to the country, I favor a lot of listening exposure early on (ok with subtitles), preferably to something they wouldn't mind watching over and over again. Even though I only catch a little word or phrase here and there in Irish while watching Aifric, watching the show really helps demystify the language for me and as I re-watch it after progressing a bit in my studies I manage to understand more which is very motivating. If not on a really tight budget, a good private tutor can do wonders. Otherwise, try to find conversation partners and/or start writing a journal. I think to get to a high level quickly you don't want to delay working on activating your skills. Looking at a list of CEFR/ACTFL guidelines should be a good way of determining if you're making good progress in what you're able to do with the language. Finally, if they want to work on vocabulary, I'd favor Memrise over Anki for this "just tell me what to do" student. I think there's a bit of a learning curve to learning to use Anki to its full benefit whereas you can be reviewing essential vocabulary right off the bat with Memrise and Memrise just seems better to me for learning new vocabulary. Plus there are plenty of "most frequent word" courses that ought to be useful. Once he has some experience under his belt and is working with a lot more native materials, he may take more of an interest in tools such as Anki. Edited by sctroyenne on 22 January 2014 at 8:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5268 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 16 of 37 22 January 2014 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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What a shame your friend doesn't want to come on HTLAL! He's really missing out on a great way to get help along the way.
Short answer: For most of these languages there are plenty of resources available. The danger is overkill. Not every method is for everyone. I would use two formal, structured courses for synergy (Pimsleur, MT, FSI or Assimil) Listening from the beginning should NOT be overlooked. Also, I'd seriously look into getting an online skype tutor. Price is anywhere from $10-$20 an hour generally. Even twice a month sessions will do wonders for his learning. Longer answer: I'd get hold of Pimsleur and a good, basic structured course. Pimsleur is available in all three languages. If the local library doesn't have it, ask for an inter-library loan. if done at one unit a day with some repeats it should be doable in three and a half months. At the same time, I'd choose a course to do, FSI, Assimil,Teach Yourself, Hugo in 3 Months, something. I'd go through both simultaneously, one in the morning and one in the evening. I'd get the Ankidroid app for my phone, I'd rip the Pimsleur CDs to mp3, and buy a phrasebook to utilize "hidden moments" throughout the day (waiting for things, driving and walking for listening) to get in as much practice as possible. I'd get a twitter account and start following people tweeting in the TL. I'd try to spend at least 10 minutes in a day to puzzle out a tweet on my own using a dictionary. If you have a smartphone, twitter can be reviewed during those hidden moments throughout the day. I'd start speaking as soon as possible, either with a paid tutor or via a free language exchange. As soon as possible, I'd start writing short posts on lang8. The main thing is that the friend should be consistent and persistent doing something in the language everyday- there are no excuses! He should expose himself to as much TL listening as possible throughout the day. He should set mini goals for himself throughout the process. A major goal to work towards can be a huge motivating factor- i.e. passing a test by a set date. Benny, has some good advice here: How to speak a language pretty well, starting from scratch, in just two months FI3M I explain the multi-track approach here. tastyonions log is a good guide and he made great progress in a short amount of time. emk- French: Wandering towards C1 emk's methods can be adapted to any western language. Edited by iguanamon on 22 January 2014 at 9:00pm 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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