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The dark side of language dominance

 Language Learning Forum : General discussion (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply
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rdearman
Senior Member
United Kingdom
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881 posts - 1812 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin

 
 Message 81 of 176
30 May 2014 at 12:04pm | IP Logged 
Since English originated in Europe shouldn't that be even more reason for it to be the defacto language of Europe? You argue that a "European" language should be the language of Europe and contrary to the wishes of a large portion of the United Kingdom, they are part of Europe.

So I say scrap the use of French in the EU, switch to English which is the true European language.

:)

(Fuel on fire, check!)
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PeterMollenburg
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Speaks: English*
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 Message 82 of 176
30 May 2014 at 12:50pm | IP Logged 
kanewai wrote:
But is there really a trend toward English in South America?


I don't really know, if there's any growth there in English language learning I'd
assume it's fairly low key, but again an assumption. It seems it's the one continent
just plodding along and not getting too involved in the uptake of English.

kanewai wrote:

It seems to be the
opposite, that the US is becoming more bilingual Spanish. Which is either cool (to
some of us) or horrifying (to a lot of others).   Basic knowledge of Spanish is already
a de facto requirement for a lot of social service jobs.


I've read similar things, but certain conditions need to continue for the growth of
Spanish to continue to grow in the U.S. at the rate it has and this may or may not
occur. If it does I think it's a good thing as long as America remains as influential
as it is today, if it doesn't, well it just doesn't.

kanewai wrote:

I'm also surprised that English is more 'international' in Europe than French is, but I
also feel that 'it was what it is,' and that these things evolve organically. In Lyon,
the Frenchiest French city I visited (and I mean that as a complete compliment) I was
surprised at how many people spoke English, at how well they spoke it, and how eager
they were to speak English with me - I didn't encounter this at all in the more
typical tourist areas of France.


Many ppl are under differing degrees of the impression that France is staunchly
protective of their language and culture. Yes they are - well their language
authorities are, but not to the same degree Québec is, and much of the younger
population in particular do not agree with this and feel that English is cool and has
won the battle and so on and so forth. English is viewed very positively and studied
with fervour in France, it's influence is not viewed as a danger by the majority.
French universities recently hit public spotlight as they want to allow an ever
increasing number of English taught courses into their curriculum in order to attract
foreign students. What message does this send to French speaking African countries,
particularly those in which a minority speak French? It's another indicator that they
could be propagating the wrong language (in their opinion) among their educated
populace.

kanewai wrote:

The explanation I got is similar to what Doitsujin noted. There are a lot of cultural
connections between northern France and Germany, and the French guys said it was easier
for them to learn English than German, and conversely easier for the Germans to learn
English than French. It wasn't even political, and didn't have much at all to do with
the US or the UK - it was just the easiest common ground for them to find.


I have no argument behind the reasons why particular languages (in this case English)
becomes the choice of various groups of ppl to communicate. I'm not suggesting you feel
you have to convince me, this just seems like a fitting place to add that comment of
mine. English is making inroads everywhere for obvious reasons, I don't dispute that
for a second. The reasons are are many, and have been discussed many of us here.

kanewai wrote:

(and to back up, I wasn't trying to quash the conversation earlier, just move it back
to languages. One side of my family left the US to Brazil and Chile during the
McCarthy era, and the Chilean side fled again after the coup. And it was a bit weird
getting lectured by a guy in the UK on things that are a basic part of my family
history. So it was either engage, or try to get back to languages).


My apologies then for misunderstanding. I appreciate everyone's input here, thanks
kanewai for yours too
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PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
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Speaks: English*
Studies: FrenchB1

 
 Message 83 of 176
30 May 2014 at 12:56pm | IP Logged 
rdearman wrote:
Since English originated in Europe shouldn't that be even more reason
for it to be the defacto language of Europe? You argue that a "European" language
should be the language of Europe and contrary to the wishes of a large portion of the
United Kingdom, they are part of Europe.

So I say scrap the use of French in the EU, switch to English which is the true
European language.

:)

(Fuel on fire, check!)


I agree English is European, and that gives it merrit for being a transnational
language in Europe. However it's not the most widely spoken in terms of L1 speakers
(German is- not counting Russia which is geographically predominantly in Asia). Spanish
is already spoken widely in South America. French is already spoken in other areas of
the world as is English. Germany Austria and Switzerland are in the centre of Europe
with around 100 million native speakers of German I believe. It makes sense on that
basis. French makes sense as it has already been pointed out due to its international
standing already. English I think already holds a BIG standing throughout the world,
thus my thinking was balance out the linguistic equation a little by NOT having Europe
use English as lingua franca but instead German (most fair), or French (prob more
likely).
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Radioclare
Triglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
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Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto
Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian

 
 Message 84 of 176
30 May 2014 at 1:07pm | IP Logged 
Solfrid Cristin wrote:
Esperanto would be the logical choice, but it has never caught on. And at the risk of offending the Esperantist I understand why. It feels unnatural to me, and since there is no country you can go to for immersion, and no truly native accent, it does not appeal to me.


Sniff, I'm offended. No, not really, I think it's extremely unlikely that Esperanto will ever achieve world domination, and if it did it would probably only solve one set of problems and create a whole new set. You only need to attend one meeting of an Esperanto club to realise that having a common language does not bring peace and harmony ;)

I don't like the domination of English, but I don't get angry about it because I think it's beyond our control to change.

What I wish I could change is the attitude of some English-speaking people, who don't realise the privilege that they have as a result of 'their' language being the dominant one and therefore don't treat others who have had to spend years of their life learning it with respect. I cringe whenever I see English-speakers abroad, addressing locals in English without the courtesy of checking whether they speak English first, and then complaining if the poor local can't understand their particular regional accent (because why would you try to speak clearly and avoid slang when talking to a foreigner?!) or - heaven forbid - doesn't speak English at all. My boyfriend and I sometimes converse only in Esperanto if we're in public in a tourist hotspot, so as to disassociate ourselves from that sort of behaviour. I guess at least we found a use for Esperanto ;)
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rdearman
Senior Member
United Kingdom
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881 posts - 1812 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin

 
 Message 85 of 176
30 May 2014 at 1:09pm | IP Logged 
PeterMollenburg wrote:

I agree English is European, and that gives it merrit for being a transnational
language in Europe. However it's not the most widely spoken in terms of L1 speakers


But combined L1 & L2 speakers of English already dominate Europe, so it is already the standard. I work for a French company which does business through the whole of Europe, and we have a combined IT system, meetings, etc. The standard is English, since everyone speaks English either as L1 / L2 /L3. So our French colleagues speak to our German colleagues in English, the Germans speak to the Italians in English, etc.

Just like Internet bandwidth, the lowest common denominator always wins out.


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PeterMollenburg
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Speaks: English*
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 Message 86 of 176
30 May 2014 at 1:28pm | IP Logged 
rdearman wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:

I agree English is European, and that gives it merrit for being a transnational
language in Europe. However it's not the most widely spoken in terms of L1 speakers


But combined L1 & L2 speakers of English already dominate Europe, so it is already the
standard. I work for a French company which does business through the whole of Europe,
and we have a combined IT system, meetings, etc. The standard is English, since
everyone speaks English either as L1 / L2 /L3. So our French colleagues speak to our
German colleagues in English, the Germans speak to the Italians in English, etc.

Just like Internet bandwidth, the lowest common denominator always wins out.



You're stating the obvious. I'm already aware of this (not that you can read my mind,
but my earlier posts should indicate that i'm well aware of the spread of English
throughout Europe and well aware of why it has been chosen and so on- thus part of the
main reason this topic is being discussed, due to exactly that the spread of English).
I don't mean to come off in a bad tone but I'm not seeing the point of your post here
other than to reiterate what has already been stated. If you weren't aware it's already
been covered then I understand and thank you for pointing it out here.

To add to your point tho...

You are correct English is crossing many borders and it is widely spoken by various
people from different backgrounds. As has been mentioned alread business requires a
common tongue, a means of communication to sell things, a tool to get that message
across. English reaches a wider audience in Europe when L1,L2 and L3 speakers are
factored in than any other language in Europe. But this is what I dislike (i personally
can do extremely little about it, i'm simply analysing) I dislike that English is
becoming ever more pervasive. I would feel more comfortable if it were German or French
as English already pervades a lot of the globe, so let's balance it out. But it's
increasingly evident that little will change when English now in Europe is increasingly
becoming a necessity to carry out business even in the absence of L1 English speakers
from the UK/US and so on. That is a little sad in my opinion. This is why I am saying
it would be nicer for Europe to be united with a different language. I already
understand why it's occuring.
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Doitsujin
Diglot
Senior Member
Germany
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 Message 87 of 176
30 May 2014 at 1:29pm | IP Logged 
PeterMollenburg wrote:
English I think already holds a BIG standing throughout the world,
thus my thinking was balance out the linguistic equation a little by NOT having Europe use English as lingua franca but instead German (most fair), or French (prob more likely).

There is no linguistic equation to balance out! IMHO, you're looking for a solution to a non-existing problem. Believe it or not, most non-native English speakers are actually quite happy with English as a lingua franca.
I also don't think it's "unfair" that German hasn't become Europe's lingua franca. Most Europeans simply get more mileage out of learning English (and other languages).

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PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
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Speaks: English*
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 Message 88 of 176
30 May 2014 at 1:56pm | IP Logged 
Doitsujin wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
English I think already holds a BIG standing
throughout the world,
thus my thinking was balance out the linguistic equation a little by NOT having Europe
use English as lingua franca but instead German (most fair), or French (prob more
likely).


Doitsujin wrote:

There is no linguistic equation to balance out! IMHO, you're looking for a solution to
a non-existing problem.

I realise this. My 'solutions' are fantasy, my equation is biast and fantasy.

If you're speaking literally and really think i'm actually actively looking for a
'solution' then I'm absolutely delusional.

I also agree in that there's not a problem as such. It's almost Darwinian in terms of
language evolution. English has been compared to a Tyranasaurus Rex. It is in fact true
that Globalization which more often than not carried with it the English language while
selling American ideals is actually responsible directly or indirectly for cultural
dilution. Why do you think languages are disappearing? It seems we've single handedly
directed this (including myself) as predominantly an English issue but it's all big
languages causing cultural dilution, and some smaller ones too.

Now if I don't take you literally then well to be fair there are certainly 2 sides to
any discussion. You're entitled to yours- that is that this is natural, it's fine,
everyone's comfortable with it. I admit is very likely to be the stance of many people.
The other side is that there is an issue. This is why i cited many sources, still even
with the issue it's almost natural too. I agree with both sides, what I won't agree on
is that it's not happening (language and cultural dilution at the hands of other
biggers languages), because it is.

Doitsujin wrote:

Believe it or not, most non-native English speakers are actually quite happy
with English as a lingua franca.

I never said they weren't happy. I do believe this statement, you must think i'm
stupid, and I mean that in a non nasty way.

[QUOTE=Doitsujin]
I also don't think it's "unfair" that German hasn't become Europe's lingua franca. Most
Europeans simply get more mileage out of learning English (and other languages).


I've already said this time and time again, I totally understand why the English
language is being readily adopted. To take it a step further I have NOTHING against
those that choose to learn it. What am I a dictator? In fact I think it's great that
other ppl learn languages and have the right to choose. This whole thread in part is
about why certain languages dominate with a hint of fantasy changes thrown in ;)



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