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The dark side of language dominance | ||
Tags: Language Map/Atlas | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion | ( Topic Closed) |  |
| cpnlsn88 Triglot Groupie United Kingdom Joined 5039 days ago 63 posts - 112 votes  Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Spanish, Esperanto, Latin | Message 137 of 176 03 June 2014 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I think there are group behaviours as well as individual ones. I notice in American theological articles in the 19th Century that there is a big preoccupation with German writings and such articles and books are written in German. I am not in a position to prove this but think there were a number of academic fields (among them theology) where German studies were so preeminent in their field there would be an expectation you would have to learn German to do well in that field. That position has obviously decayed with the events of the 20th Century and I very much doubt there are many fields where internationally there is an expectation you be able to read German (it is possible this might have happened more slowly without these historical events).
This is of course a pity from one perspective. But still it seems you will need either an international language or group of such to communicate across boundaries. By reason of economy there will be a narrowing process but even without that there would still be a small number of such languages where one could expect scientists/academics (and similar in other fields) in different fields to learn a given language. People tend to see this as a threat to the national languages but, whilst they may lose international prestige, they are not threatened as languages, however much people fear the predominance of English. There are however a very large number of minority languages and dialects all over Europe that are under very real threat of a slow extinction - for instance one may mention Alsatian and Lorraine Franconian in France. These languages are not under any threat from English but rather the (longstanding) threat posed by linguistic uniformity at the national level. If English was used more commonly as a second language in the EU I can imagine this would increase labour mobility and intra-EU trade considerably so there could be real economic benefits from that. Of course there is the assumption that this is beneficial to English speakers. This is not necessarily the case. 2nd language English will form into its own dialect over time and this will cause difficulty for native speakers of English for whom the dialect itself will appear a little foreign at best and may prove difficult to master when one is used to native tongue English (though that itself of course exists in a variety of dialects already). 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6599 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 138 of 176 03 June 2014 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
The point is that in many countries you can't do these things without English. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5478 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 139 of 176 04 June 2014 at 1:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm simply making an observation. I tend to ramble a lot and prob not provide concise points at times, hence why I become frustrated when people misunderstand me (ie maybe it's my own fault?) So yeah i'm making an observation that English improves peoples chances (not all countries necessarily, the information I read related to Europe) of finding decent paying work. The reason I make this statement is to provide a logical reason why people may WANT to learn language and in some cases simply study it because they feel they HAVE TO to find a better job, but all in all its to find a better job. Point being the motives are quite compelling to learn English and doing otherwise is prob not in one's best interest. The second half I make my own small observation (purely out of interest) based on the above statistics (not based on any evidence) that the statistics of having a better paying job if you speak English may not simply be because one learns English but more related to ones socio-economic standing and potential access to education as well as socializing and conditioning from being in a poor situation. ie English may not necessary = better paying job... why? improved socio-economic standing = better access to good education = better quality education = better at learning if in a stable environment (home & school) which in turn = increased likelihood of a good level of education = increased likelihood of obtaining a more than sub-par paying wage Meaning: Can English solely be evidenced of an increase in wage? = probably not Does one being able to speak English equate to better paying work in Europe in general? = yes, but maybe because it's an indicator of a higher socio-economic standing and better education, not necessarily the language itself Can these two be separated (status and English language knowledge)? = my guess is that's difficult
Again I think you have misunderstood. Nowhere have I stated that I don't want poorer people to learn English. I've not stated that I don't want people to improve their standing either Yes I have defintely clearly stated that I would prefer that other languages be learned more, often instead of English, but I can't tell people what to do, nor do I want to. I understand why they want to learn it, and that's why I spoke about employment opportunities/wage level. I made observations. I didn't say anywhere in there what I wanted other people to do. But yes it would be nice if English didn't dominate. It would be nice if other languages shared the load as lingua franca (oxymoron?) in Europe or English was lingua franca in other parts of the world and another language in Europe instead (see other posts) but I have NEVER said that I want people to carry out these wishes by telling people what to do. As far as my fanciful ideals go, i'm not a prick- put it this way I don't wish my parents or in-laws dead if it means i become a billionaire due to inheritance EVEN if I don't like them (not the case at all). I'd want them to enjoy their lives. My point here is I do not wish others misfortune in order for me to gain something. I make observations, provide fanciful ideas and that's about it. I wish it were another way but it's not and i'm fine with that. I absolutely understand WHY people learn English. How can i knock other peoples' desires to learn a language/languages whatever languages they are when i in fact am so passionate about learning languages. I can't tell others to learn what I want them to learn, and I don't intend on doing so. I just wish the way we are being globalized/anglicized/americanized whatever you want to call it wasn't occuring as I'm not in favour of it and although I tie English to that phenomena many ppl don't. I don't like both (globalization and the spread of English to the degree it is spreading -enormously-). I understand why it is occuring though, it makes a LOT of sense to me. Doesn't mean I think it's a good thing in terms of languages (not in terms of human financial status and so on)
Thanks. I respect your opinion too, but I think as I said I think you misunderstood me which could have been my fault for not being so clear.I just wanted to clarify that I'm not about brining people down for my own gain. I'm sorry if I go on and on and seem to provide almost harsh explanations, I just don't want to be misunderstood. I don't feel you've done anything wrong here, I'm simply clarifying your observations with what I actually meant Edited by PeterMollenburg on 04 June 2014 at 1:42am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5478 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 140 of 176 04 June 2014 at 3:41am | IP Logged | ||||||||
This contains a lot of really good analogies James. I like it :) It makes a lot of sense, and it's clear and concise. What's wrong with English being the major player? Well I'm not going to dive back into why I don't like there being a major global language (no matter which language). There are pro's for and against there being a single dominant global language. I think i've made some pretty decent attempts at pointing out the negatives while others on here have certainly pointed out the positives, so i'm not about to answer the question in this single post, as I think it's already been covered pretty well. But you are hinting at something, which is most ppl don't have an issue with it, and that's fine by me. I would prefer otherwise, but I know it's not necessarily realistic, and I'm not about to tell people what to do. Perhaps my issue is really more globalization than language? Without globalization I doubt this would be occuring like it is today (spread of English) Edited by PeterMollenburg on 04 June 2014 at 3:44am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| iguanamon Pentaglot Senior Member Virgin Islands Speaks: Ladino Joined 5264 days ago 2241 posts - 6731 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French) | Message 141 of 176 04 June 2014 at 6:10am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Railing against globalization is pointless. As individuals we have little power over forces larger than ourselves. You've got to do something about it. What must be done is to think globally and act locally. Why not learn an aboriginal language next? Check out @IndigenousTweet for relevant links. There's a lot going on in this regard in Australia.
Minimalism is a valid alternative to the consumer/materialist lifestyle- requiring less money and creating less waste, with less of an impact both locally and globally. Becoming a locavore means less dependency on imported food and drink. If enough people gather together and become the change they would like to see in the world, change will happen, eventually. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| PeterMollenburg Senior Member AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5478 days ago 821 posts - 1273 votes Speaks: English* Studies: FrenchB1 | Message 142 of 176 04 June 2014 at 8:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I know it's next-to-pointless, but no harm in expressing my distaste, and swimming upstream right? It's a good suggestion with regards to participating locally. I already try to buy local, and respect the environment. I might not be perfect but I do partciipate and am aware of such as I go about my day. As for aboriginal languages, I wish they were much stronger and unified. With the case of NZ they were able to create a standardized Maori language from what I understand. However with aboriginal languages here in Australia there is far too much diversity for a single unified language to occur as there are apparently 27 aboriginal languge families, and in the part of the country I live, and for the most populated areas along almost the entired east coast and inland some distance where I have travelled I have hardly EVER heard an aboriginal language spoken. Just looking at a map of Australia with regards to what remains of aboriginal languages, the areas of the country where I 'might' get good access to such a language would literally be around 3000-5000 kms away at a quick guess and most of it is extremely remote. Furthermore in 1996 only 13% of aboriginals in Australia spoke an aboriginal language. There are 55,000 speakers of aboriginal languages in Australia including all variants (prob 99% in northern Australia). It's been suggested by 2050 all indigenous languages in Australia could be gone or very close to. So yes it would be good for globalization for me to learn one, but it's just not practical. As for Canada, well I checked at the link and it's promising. I'd love to see more ppl learn indigenous languages, but just like I said in another post I can't force ppl what to do. So in learning a major language like French maybe i'm part of the problem too. I challenge you to find a textbook in an Australian aboriginal language I think you do raise a definite good point tho, it's just not for me. I'm having a hard enough time to learn French let alone taking up a language I will struggle continuously to find speakers of, access to learning matieral and still not be guaranteed that the aboriginal language I choose won't die out before I do. I'm not interested either I really enjoy the languages I chose to learn, and I can't see where I would find the time and energy to learn an aboriginal language. I have thought it would be really nice, but it's not practical. edit (source): 835b1bf2bef3/files/indigenous-languages.pdf">state of indigenous languages in Australia Edited by PeterMollenburg on 04 June 2014 at 8:29am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4624 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 143 of 176 04 June 2014 at 9:30am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Ironically, in order to strengthen the standing of the Australian aboriginal languages (or at least a subset of them) you would have to force a standard version upon people which could erode a lot of the existing diversity in dialects. Of course, the major European languages have already been through this process but there are minority tongues here which have no unified standard and any attempt to create one just provokes conflict.
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| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4624 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 144 of 176 04 June 2014 at 9:48am | IP Logged | ||||||||
When do work colleagues in European countries speak English with each other? Surely the only time English is used is when people are present who are from a different country and don't know the local language? Or if some official protocol says that a meeting must take place in English. But why would two Portuguese people converse in English if nobody else was there? Through marriage, I have contact with the German-speaking world. I have yet to witness a situation whereby German people spoke English among themselves other than to include any non-German speakers who happen to be in the group. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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