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Viewpoint: You can damage Language by writing and speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4085 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes  Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 1 of 46 03 July 2014 at 1:55pm | IP Logged |
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http://www.antimoon.com/how/mistakes-damage.htm
You can damage your English by writing and speaking How practice can damage your English If you ask “How can I learn to speak English better?”, many people will tell you “Practice, practice, practice”. “Speak and write in English whenever you can”, they’ll say. All English classes are full of activities which involve speaking and writing. You produce sentences when you do an exercise in your textbook, when your teacher makes you speak in class, or when you have to write a composition. All these activities are supposed to help you with your English. Practice can be very useful. It’s even necessary to learn English well. So what’s the problem? The problem is that for many learners, speaking or writing means making a lot of mistakes. Some people make a mistake in every sentence! Suppose you are writing an e-mail message in English. Your English is not perfect and you want to write the message quickly. You write (incorrectly): I want speak English. When you write a sentence, you also read it. So the incorrect sentence becomes “toxic input” for your brain. The next time you write a message, you will be more likely to write I want finish or I want be happy. Why? Because I want speak English is fresh in your head — you recently used it! And when you write I want <do something> a few more times, you’ll get a bad habit: I want <do something> will become your natural way of speaking English. Such bad habits can be very difficult to eliminate. Even if somebody later points out your mistake and you concentrate very hard to avoid making it again, the bad habit is often stronger. It’s an uphill battle. Every time you write or speak with mistakes, you reinforce those mistakes. As you repeat your mistakes, you develop bad habits. If you make a lot of mistakes, practice becomes a harmful activity because it teaches you more bad English than good English. Some learners make so many mistakes that the more they practice, the worse their English becomes! What about “learning from your mistakes”? The only way you can learn something from your mistakes is when somebody corrects them. If you say an incorrect sentence, and if someone points out the mistake and tells you the proper way to express your meaning, then your knowledge of English increases. You may therefore think that speaking or writing with mistakes is not so bad because it is a chance to fix your errors and learn something new. Unfortunately, this is true only if you have a checker — a competent person who will correct your mistakes. If you don’t have a checker, speaking or writing with mistakes will only give you bad habits. If you’re thinking that an English teacher could be your checker, consider this: Many teachers (especially non-native speakers) are simply incompetent. Sometimes they will find “errors” in correct sentences or suggest bad alternatives. I couldn’t count the number of times it happened to me in high school. Most teachers correct only the biggest mistakes and ignore the rest. The reason is simple: class time is limited. If they corrected every mistake of every student, they wouldn’t be able to teach their lessons. You could get some kind of private tutor, but how much would it cost to have him correct everything you write and say in English? What about “random native speakers”? This category includes any native speakers who are not your teachers: your American friends, Australian penpals, native speakers on Internet forums, or just regular people around you, if you are in an English-speaking country. Can they be effective checkers? Not likely. In general, native speakers will not correct your mistakes! As long as they can understand what you mean, they will completely ignore all your mistakes in grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. For example, the message below is perfectly understandable and could easily pass uncorrected: I am want make question for knowing how to able speak English proper way. I need of a internet learn book for American word of slang. I will thank your help for life. Why is that? As a case in point, I get a lot of e-mail from English learners. I love English and I like correcting mistakes. But I almost never point out mistakes. Why? Because if I did, it would often take me 10 more minutes to reply to a message. And I usually don’t have 10 more minutes. Correcting mistakes requires not only great English skills. To correct someone, you have to pay attention to what he says or writes. If something is wrong, you have to think of a better way to say it. Correction takes time and effort. And people are lazy and don’t have the time to fix someone else’s sentences. It’s much easier to ignore the mistakes and keep the conversation going. It’s always stressful to tell someone that they made a mistake. Many native speakers will be afraid of an awkward social situation and when you make a mistake, they will pretend that nothing has happened. Some of them will even think they are being polite. Related pages For a more in-depth discussion, read “Mistakes in language learning” and this forum topic. “Learning from your mistakes” sounds good, but it is not easy, because making mistakes is not enough — you still need someone to give you feedback. And it is difficult to find a competent person to help you. Besides, even if you had such a person available whenever you speak or write in English, making mistakes would probably still be harmful, since mistakes can lead to bad habits even if they are corrected. The sooner you realize you cannot “speak your way” to good English, the sooner you will make some real progress. Solution: Stop making mistakes! We have said that when you practice, you reinforce your mistakes, and that you cannot rely on feedback from other people. We have also said that you need practice to learn English. There is a simple solution to this paradox: Never make mistakes! Before you conclude that we have completely lost it, please read what one of us (Michal Ryszard Wojcik) has written about his experiences: It is close to the truth that I have never written an incorrect English sentence. I knew many grammatical structures and I used only those that I knew. My sentences were similar to sentences which I knew to be correct. I followed good examples, so all my sentences were good. In the beginning, I could write only very simple sentences, but all the simple sentences were correct. Then as I advanced, I added more and more complicated structures, and again all my sentences were correct. Because of this approach, I was never reinforcing bad habits. I never had any bad habits! From the beginning, I copied only correct sentences. With every sentence that I wrote, I reinforced my good habits. You can speak and write with almost no mistakes, too. FAQ “But if I’m afraid to make a mistake, I will never open my mouth!” You will not be afraid to make a mistake if you know how to say things in English. You will know how to say things in English if you get enough input — that is, if you keep reading and listening to correct English sentences until correct English phrases sound natural to you and incorrect phrases sound weird to you. Then you will be sure that you’re speaking correctly. “I make a lot mistakes when I speak English—what should I do?” Definitely get a lot of input. If you make mistakes in your English sentences, that means you don’t know how to say things in English. You need to learn how to say them. You won’t learn that by speaking or writing. You must read and listen to correct English sentences. There is no other way. Try to be more careful — use the rules of error-free speaking. If you still make a lot of mistakes, you probably shouldn’t open your mouth just now. Switch to writing, which gives you more time to look things up. If you still make a lot of mistakes, consider a “silent period”: stop speaking and writing, and spend a month or two getting input only. (More details in this article.) “But you cannot learn anything without mistakes!” Of course nobody is perfect and some mistakes will occur. But believe us — you can learn English with almost no mistakes. How? You can fill your brain with correct sentences and imitate them. You can simply follow good examples. People sometimes say that the process of learning a language has to involve a lot of mistakes, because they think learning a language is like learning to play golf. But this is a bad analogy. In languages, it is easy to “follow good examples”. In golf, it is difficult. If you see a few example sentences with a word, it is not difficult to produce a correct sentence with that word. On the other hand, you could watch professional golfers all day long, and still be unable to strike the ball correctly. The only hard-to-imitate element in languages is pronunciation. (A more detailed analysis can be found in this article.) “Can I ever make a mistake on purpose?” Yes. Sometimes you can say or write something which you think is wrong. You can do it if you want to learn how to say something in English. For example, if you are talking to a native speaker, you can do this: Say “I’m not sure how to say this in English, but ...” and then say your sentence (which is probably wrong). The other person can tell you how to say it in English correctly. Learn the correct way to say the sentence. Notice that this technique is only safe if: you are sure that the other person will correct you if you make a mistake you use it only occasionally 6 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Via Diva Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4237 days ago 1109 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek | Message 2 of 46 03 July 2014 at 3:07pm | IP Logged |
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Like natives don't have time to fix learner's mistakes, learners might have a lack of it too.
I would be happy if I could produce flawless English, but it takes too much effort and time. I am not even sure if I need that since I still live in Russia and do not see any way of going abroad right now. Actually, the fear of mistakes might be the reason of my problems with school English - I had no idea how to speak without mistakes and I was giving up speaking in general. I still hate writing with mistakes, but I would even show off and try to use some complex grammar structure instead of being silent or speaking correct, but limited English. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6706 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 3 of 46 03 July 2014 at 3:15pm | IP Logged |
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I tend to disagree. You are best equipped to eradicate old errors from your target language when you have become a fluent user of it, and you won't become a fluent user if you are scared to death by the mere thought of committing an error which isn't corrected on the spot by a qualified teacher - especially not if you haven't subscribed to the services of such a person.
Instead it might be worth trying to define when you go for speed and fluency, and when you work on your knowledge and accuracy. 22 persons have voted this message useful | |
| PianoFish Newbie United Kingdom Joined 3812 days ago 11 posts - 28 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 4 of 46 03 July 2014 at 4:14pm | IP Logged |
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I agree with this in principle, it is certainly important to do your best to avoid mistakes and modelling your speech and writing on sentences you know to be correct is a very good idea. My French teacher in school told us never to write a sentence in an exam that we hadn't used before, though of course that doesn't guarantee that you've memorised it correctly. I prefer the idea of delaying at least 'live' speech or writing until you feel confident you can do so correctly, though I feel the proponents of speaking and writing early who argue that that day will never actually come do have a point.
I think the technique of copying sentences which are correct is valuable, though if you are using native materials you may not know whether the sentences are correct because native speakers make mistakes too and often use local slang words or non-standard sentence structures which people from other English-speaking regions or countries may find odd or not understand at all. You also need to be aware of the region or country you are focusing on and how the register or spelling you use will be perceived elsewhere. Using American spelling in Britain, for example, will generally be (grudgingly) accepted as correct but frowned upon. Australian accents are often mocked but with some affection, like teasing a younger sibling. I noted that Wojcik said he had never written an incorrect English sentence rather than having never spoken one, it is a lot easier to avoid making mistakes in writing than speech because you have more time to think over and check the words you use. When speaking it is also important to be aware of non-verbal communication like body language and facial expressions, which convey an authentic use of the language even if you forget words or mix something up. Native speakers often use small words or sounds like "um" when they forget a word, which may be accompanied by certain hand or face gestures and if you know these you can use them and you will still be using the language correctly. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 5 of 46 03 July 2014 at 5:27pm | IP Logged |
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I agree with atamagaii's take on that. Aim for perfection while practising, don't worry about mistakes when actually using the language.
I also wouldn't say the idea is to be scared to death by the thought of errors. The idea is getting so much input that you just won't say things like *I want speak English. And avoiding non-native input, especially by those whose native language is the same or similar to yours. The rest of the articles are worth reading too. I entirely agree with Antimoon and AJATT that to write better, you need to read more, not write more. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Arekkusu Hexaglot Senior Member Canada bit.ly/qc_10_lec Joined 5384 days ago 3971 posts - 7747 votes Speaks: English, French*, GermanC1, Spanish, Japanese, Esperanto Studies: Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Estonian | Message 6 of 46 03 July 2014 at 5:54pm | IP Logged |
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Nonsense. There is nothing to be gained from a fear of mistakes.
Learning consists in an infinite cycle of incomplete acquisitions growing progressively more complete. Not only is the notion of perfection in language utopic, but we all regularly create incorrect sentences in our first language. A good learner is a critical learner. No matter what you learn, you will make mistakes. The better learner can push for his own progress by allowing himself or herself to make mistakes, and by taking responsibility for them and fixing them. And you can learn to correct your own mistakes -- I'd even venture that self-correction is the most powerful learning tool anyone can have. Embrace your mistakes, pay attention to the language you are exposed to and self-correct. Edited by Arekkusu on 03 July 2014 at 6:09pm 13 persons have voted this message useful | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 7 of 46 03 July 2014 at 6:51pm | IP Logged |
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It's not about fear. It's about having input, especially if you have no opportunities to use the language anyway. At the very least, having a silent period is a valid alternative to artificially creating these opportunities as early as possible. For me it's even preferable, but I understand that speaking, exchanges and tutors can be motivating, especially for extraverts.
1 person has voted this message useful | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 8 of 46 03 July 2014 at 8:02pm | IP Logged |
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I think the idea that if you never make mistakes, you will never develop bad habits is good in theory, but in
practice learning a language, like learning anything, involves making and correcting mistakes. I believe that we would all agree --minus at least one--that it is important to imitate trustworthy examples of good speech. It's also good advice to avoid things that you have not actually heard or seen. But the reality of learning to speak a language is that inevitably one makes mistakes - lots in the beginning and eventually less and less -if one actually attempts to use the language. The idea of waiting until one is totally sure of being able to speak or write correctly is, in my mind, totally ludicrous. That means waiting forever. The fundamental issue here is how to get good correction. One can correct oneself to some extent, but nothing can replace some sort of external help such as in some kind of conversation exchange group or in a class. Or maybe taking a class in the target language. The ultimate and, by far, the best form of correction is with a professional tutor. I know that some of us have had this discussion before and there are people who think that using a tutor is a waste of time and money. Good for them. The vast majority of serious learners will attest that having a trained person scrutinize your language performance is an enlightening experience. 30 minutes working with a tutor is better than hours trying to figure things out yourself. Would an actor try to learn some dialect for a film project all by themselves when they can employ a professional dialect coach who teaches this stuff for a living? 6 persons have voted this message useful |
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