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Viewpoint: You can damage Language by writing and speaking | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5236 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 9 of 46 03 July 2014 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | ||
Actually there are a number of studies which show that self-learners and people who puzzle it out themselves can learn better and in less time. For example the University of Notre Dame found: by strategically inducing confusion in a learning session on difficult conceptual topics, people actually learned more effectively and were able to apply their knowledge to new problems. Also in the Times is an article based on research at Journal of Learning Sciences noting that "Trying to figure something out on your own before getting help actually produces better results than having guidance from the beginning." Anecdotal: I have noticed that I retain information better if I've had to "figure it out" rather than just googling the information. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 10 of 46 03 July 2014 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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^^This. Similarly, I remember cognates more easily if I had to "decipher" the meaning initially.
I also disagree with how the article is summarized in the title of this thread, btw. It's a lack of input that causes damage, not writing or speaking themselves. Your own writing shouldn't be your main source of input, and ideally neither should textbooks, at least as soon as you're capable of getting comprehensible input elsewhere. Our brain is likely to give more weight to what we said or wrote ourselves, so any uncorrected output has to be balanced out by quality input. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Michel1020 Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5017 days ago 365 posts - 559 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish, Dutch | Message 11 of 46 04 July 2014 at 12:13am | IP Logged | ||
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From now on I will read the messages with less votes first.
4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| holly heels Groupie United States Joined 3886 days ago 47 posts - 107 votes Studies: Mandarin | Message 12 of 46 04 July 2014 at 1:07am | IP Logged | ||
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Maybe in many language learners there is such a pathological fear of making mistakes, even minor ones that native speakers often make, that they come up with very creative, and sometimes contradictory methods to avoid them.
Nobody likes to be wrong, but is having mistakes corrected really that traumatic? The main purpose of a tutor is to correct mistakes, and not all of them do that. I would rather have a paid tutor to correct my mistakes than have a free one who doesn't. I admit I do have occasional nightmares of being laughed at and humiliated by native speakers for making a serious mistake. But my worst fear is having a brain freeze and not knowing a word and having to use English, therefore being "found out" as not really a fluent speaker. But I don't see how refraining from speaking the TL for a few days will decrease the possibility of that happening. If decent speaking skills are acquired, they should be nurtured and not neglected too much. I find that the longer I go without speaking the TL, the more harmful it is to my pronounciation. This theory actually makes more sense, for me anyway, in the area of listening. I have reduced the amount of Mandarin native content listening time from about 4 hours a day to 3 hours a day, and my comprehension has not suffered, it has even improved somewhat, at least at the moment. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 13 of 46 04 July 2014 at 2:32am | IP Logged | ||
Well, the default idea is that a silent period lasts months or at least weeks, not just a few days. And in our native language we don't maintain our speaking skills artificially. Nor in our strongest languages (c1+), in most cases. For me, deliberate maintenance at a lower level just isn't worth it. Yeah, I might need some warming up when I actually get a chance to speak the language, so what? I think many are missing the point. If there's no pressing need to speak, and it doesn't motivate you either, then delaying it is an excellent way to make your learning less stressful and more enjoyable. If you can get comprehensible input, you'll pick up naturally more than you can imagine. Listening and reading will compensate for all those awkward painful conversations you never had. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4444 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 14 of 46 04 July 2014 at 2:56am | IP Logged | ||
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The other day I was exchanging messages with somebody in Sweden. Right away you can tell his first
language isn't English despite his high level of fluency. His text was understandable but made at least 5 spelling and context mistakes including: "I'v" instead of "I've" for I have. "Employment agencies with poor payment". The word "pay" sounds better than "payment". "mutch proffitable" spelling mistakes. Should be "much profitable" with 1 "f" on profitable. "negativ" spelling mistake. Should be "negative" with "e" at the end. If you are on the computer and have your language setting to "Swedish", you don't get the benefit of the automatic spell check in English which would underline incorrect words and correct them automatically. However, if you type "world" instead of "would", the spell check wouldn't be useful because both are legit English words. Even if you live in the English part of the world, you still find differences between English used in the UK and the US: UK English: Fill the car with "petro". Open the "bonnet" to fix the car. To walk across the road, you would cross the "zebra". To "photograph" someone. The "lorry" passed in front of the car. American English: Fill the car with "gas". Open the "hood" to fix the car. To walk across the road, you would cross the "sidewalk". To "take a picture of" someone. The "truck" passed in front of the car. And you also have subtle spelling differences: colour / color, organise / organize, sceptical / skeptical, manoeuvre / maneuver 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4847 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 15 of 46 04 July 2014 at 3:51am | IP Logged | ||
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Sure, we don't want to make mistakes, but the thing about making bad habits... habits can be broken and destroyed. Why such a fear of making bad habits?
When babies start speaking, they speak like "Ga-ga" and "Goo-goo". Do they still speak like that when they are 21 years old? No. Sure, they get input, but they still speak every day. Kids don't remain silent until high school (some might wish they would!), then start speaking impeccably. My cousin, when she was around four or five years old, would pronounce her "c"'s as "t"'s, for some reason. So "cat" was "tat", and "carrot" was "tarrot". She's 26 now. Does she still say "tarrot"? No. Bad habits can be broken. My mother quit smoking. So somebody can learn to quit saying "Reading books are fun," even after many years, and learn to say "Reading books is fun." Now, you might say, "If you learn not to make the mistake in the first place, you don't have to worry about breaking a bad habit later." And that's a good point. But is it worth not speaking, when in fact what you want to do is speak? Is it worth the obsession over every single word, every single sentence, wondering if what you are going to say or write is correct, and going through the hassle of looking it up on the Internet or asking your tutor and trying to find out if what you want to say or write is correct? If I want to say something in Japanese to one of my colleagues on Tuesday, should I just shut my mouth and wait until I can get to a computer and check the grammar, or wait until my tutoring session on Saturday for confirmation? I guess the question is this: Do you want to enjoy speaking right away, and get your mistakes corrected and habits broken over time? Or would you rather not deal with being corrected or working on your bad habits, therefore want to hold off speaking freely until a later time? People that learn languages in order to speak them should not be afraid of the former. That's my viewpoint, anyway. EDIT: And what's wrong with saying "I want speak English?" if you are learning English? If you are getting your input, getting regular correction, etc., you will be fine. If one eventually learns that it should be "I want to speak English", I doubt one will be stuck saying "I want speak English." Edited by kujichagulia on 04 July 2014 at 4:01am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6597 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 16 of 46 04 July 2014 at 4:12am | IP Logged | ||
So great to finally agree with someone here :D
And sure, when you actually have these opportunities, it makes no sense to throw them away due to a lack of accuracy. But I'm not a fan of creating them artificially. "I want speak English" was just an example, perhaps intended to sound obviously wrong to most visitors of the antimoon site. I think English is a bit of a peculiar case, really, as there are so many non-natives who will further reinforce your bad habits. And native speakers are so used to bad English that they're very much unlikely to correct you. Also, some of my groupmates managed to get a degree in linguistics and still forgot to add the 3rd person -s even at our final English exam, after 12-15 years of learning it. So I'm sceptical about allowing bad habits to form. And unless I'm wrong, the whole idea of a silent period originates from the fact that babies spend up to three years just listening. If they're at the longer end of the spectrum, they might be able to speak in full sentences when they finally start. My aunt was. (Of course there are some obvious differences between children and adults) As for kuji's example, I'd say the best thing to do here is to either simplify what you are going to say to a colleague, or choose a grammar structure to practise every day (or every week etc), and use it in your speech while it's fresh in your memory after learning/revising. Edited by Serpent on 04 July 2014 at 4:38am 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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