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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| victorhart Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie United States mandarinexperiment.o Joined 3734 days ago 66 posts - 155 votes  Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French Studies: Mandarin | Message 17 of 170 05 October 2014 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Wow--a lot of intelligent and challenging posts! This is what I hoped for when I
posted on this forum and in undertaking my experiment, and I appreciate the thoughtful way many posters have responded to my idea. Thank you! I am tracking my entire experiment in detail and have a blog in which I share results and all sorts of reflections on many of the issues mentioned in the replies. I am not including a link here out of respect for forum rules. What I will try to do instead in the coming days and weeks is respond as best I can to each of the issues that you have mentioned, drawing on my specific experience and my theoretical understanding about language acquisition. As a quick first reply, I would say a few things. 1) I am really enjoying my experiment, especially watching Chinese movies. 2) My progress is certainly slow, as you would all predict, but 9 months (150 hours) into the experiment I have no doubt that I am making progress and will eventually learn to understand spoken Mandarin this way. 3) I am doing a couple of things that emk might call "cheating"—a very interesting and well-explained concept that I enjoyed reading about in the specific topic he created on this forum. I call it, in one of my blog posts, "proxies for interaction and mediation." The main one is generally using English subtitles on films, which does help me decipher words from time to time. Eventually, I will get rid of the subtitles, however. 4) I have found and written a lot about one specific show that does allow a zero beginner to decipher a lot of words naturally. It is made for Chinese toddlers, who are just acquiring Mandarin as well. Apparently, it is originally a Japanese show but a Chinese version is produced extensively. The Chinese version is called Qiao Hu and countless episodes are available on YouTube. 5) Like many of you, I am also a seasoned language learner. I speak two languages at a native level, a third at an advanced enough level that I often fool native speakers into thinking I’m native, and I am fluent (if extremely rusty) in a fourth. I was an EFL teacher for many years, founded a language institute, and have developed an original methodology for beginning students of English and collaborated on the production of a French version (including professional quality books, CDs, and original games). So, although none of this guarantees I’m right about anything, and since my languages are all Western European, they do not help at all with Mandarin, I did not get into this experiment with total naïveté. 6) As I mentioned in my original post, I do not claim this is the best method, and outside experimental purposes, I would always advocate a more balanced and flexible approach, as many of you have suggested. On the other hand, I personally think that studying grammatical rules and using any type of translation will also slow you down significantly, and more importantly may hamper one’s ability to achieve a high level of fluency down the road. I have come across countless students that spent many years using traditional methods, including grammatical study and translated terms, and despite a large vocabulary, they were hobbled by a mental translation habit, constant mental reference to grammatical rules, and a general stiltedness and slowness in their communication. Ironically, their grammar-in-use tends to be very poor. By contrast, throughout my life, most of the very successful language learners I have come across are those that have immersed themselves in natural communication. Good grammar, both as native speakers and second language learners, is almost always a function of quantity and quality of reading and the educational level of the people with whom one generally uses the language. Formal grammar study generally has nothing to do with it. 7) To the objection that we should not emulate small children’s approach to language acquisition because they take many years and perhaps 10 to 20 thousand hours to get to a high level of (native) fluency, I would offer the example of a 5 or 7 year old who is suddenly immersed in a new language. They often achieve native-level mastery in a matter of months! So, although I think posters are right that we can and should use our advantages as adults, we can and should also avoid pitfalls that are also inherent to adult learners, and certainly copy a lot of strategies employed by small children. We have a lot more neuroplasticity than was once thought! 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4560 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 18 of 170 05 October 2014 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Thanks for the very interesting reply to comments.
Of course, it matters how you define "native", but my understanding (from a post of perhaps EMKs a year ago) was that children thrown into these sorts of situations don't actually become native in a matter of months, but actually require years to catch-up with their native peers (at least if you do formal tests of language ability). That's not to say that they don't suddenly develop some sort of language mastery, but their grammar/vocab is simply not as good as their peers for many years (the figure I remember reading was that it took 4-5 years for children to match native children's abilities). But even native children take years to develop their language skills. It's commonly estimated that they learn about 1000 words per year, so even for them it takes some years before they get to a good C1 level. Edited by patrickwilken on 05 October 2014 at 6:54pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4560 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 19 of 170 05 October 2014 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Well as I mentioned there is this: TV method, or how I learned Italian Whether you believe it or not is of course up to you, but for that doesn't sound totally impossible. He apparently spent about 3000 hours watching TV and Italian is perhaps one of the easiest languages to learn for an English speaker, and he was watching children's programs. Whether it is the most efficient way that's certainly another question, but I think we all agree that the big issue is getting to some sort of comprehensible input. Once there, immersion will work given enough time. Edited by patrickwilken on 05 October 2014 at 7:07pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| YnEoS Senior Member United States Joined 4281 days ago 472 posts - 893 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Russian, Cantonese, Japanese, French, Hungarian, Czech, Swedish, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish | Message 20 of 170 05 October 2014 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Sounds like if there is any proper way to do this thing, you're doing it. I've been experimenting with similar methods with my Japanese studies in conjunction with my usual course methods and find it quite enjoyable and rewarding. One resource I'm using is the Berlitz Basic Course and Berlitz Think and Talk courses with use sound effects and situational context to allow you to understand the meaning of simple sentences. It's quite a rush to figure things out from context alone at a low level, and I find stuff I learn this way ends up sticking really well.
The problem I face of course, is finding enough of this content graded at the right intervals, which is where I turn to L-R and coursework to help bridge the gaps. Thanks for the show recommendation, I'm checking out the Japanese version, Shima Shima Tora no Shimajirō, and it seems really useful and I will probably start incorporating it into my studies. Best of luck with your Mandarin studies and please continue to follow up with your progress. Edited by YnEoS on 05 October 2014 at 7:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6624 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 21 of 170 05 October 2014 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
There's a huge difference between doing translation exercises, using a translation (parallel text etc) and using bilingual dictionaries. I personally avoid translation courses/exercises and use L2-L3 dictionaries. I also study grammar as a linguist and not as a learner. I'm not questioning your experience as a teacher, but I think the learners you're talking about would struggle with most methods if they don't have enough input. Within the range of comprehensible speech we could argue for hours whether it's better to speak more accurately or with more fluency/fluidity. I also don't believe the damage of constantly translating is long-term - it's just pointless. That said, I agree with pretty much everything else you said and I was the one who voted for the original post :-) 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5559 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 170 05 October 2014 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
Thank you for the interesting responses!
You're contributing to an interesting discussion, so a link is certainly permitted under the rules. Is this it?
I know that speed isn't really your goal, but it seems like 150 hours of subs2srs (or Listening/Reading) should be enough to take you pretty far, and both are purely "boosted" versions of extensive learning. With raw, native TV, you have to fight for every scrap of "i+1" input—because even Sesame Street is aimed at 3-year-olds, and native children get 3 to 13 million words of input per year, much of it interactive. I suspect you can find more efficient ways to get comprehensible input at the A1 and A2 levels than just plain TV. Once you reach a point where TV actually does provide large quantities of i+1 input, it can work ridiculously fast. I started Buffy with ~40% comprehension, and I was at 75% comprehension within a season, and 90+% within three seasons. Granted, a lot of this was simply turning reading skills into listening skills. But a lot of other people on HTLAL have tried watching TV series with great results.
I have complicated feelings about this claim. I study grammar only rarely and haphazardly, I avoid mental translation almost completely, and I've spoken French at home for a few years now. But if you ask me to talk about the Ebola epidemic or discuss whether Doctor Who is science fiction, my English is still much better than my French: 1. When speaking English to somebody who shares my interests, I can participate in long, animated conversations. Until I started learning French, I never appreciated just what I could do in English. 2. When speaking French, I hunt for words, botch gender agreement, and generally annoy listeners who expect me to perform like a native. I'm far past that nice B1 level where everyone encourages me, and not yet near a level where I can be treated as "approximately native." On a good day, sure, I can explain basic Keynesian economics in French. (I cheat and use a famous child-care analogy, which plays to my strengths.) But in English, sometimes people actually enjoy listening. Sometimes. :-) So do I botch my French because I occasionally studied grammar? Or am I just harsh about my French because I'm comparing it to my English, which I've used heavily for decades?
I really think that people romanticize childhood language acquisition. Here's a description of what it can feel like from a 6-year-old child's perspective:
Many children can socialize effectively in their L2 within the first six months. But socializing in a language is a relatively easy skill—any immersed CEFR B1 student should be be able to muddle through it. Which just leaves all the hard stuff:
Can adults master their L2 to a "playground" level in 6 months? Of course. For example, FSI students reach ILR 3/3 "Professional Working Proficiency" in French in that amount of time. Admittedly, English->French is a best-case scenario for FSI, but ILR 3/3 is also overkill for the playground. I think a lot of people's intuitions about language learning are "off", because they tend to compare: 1. Fully-immersed children learning the community language, and 2. Adults learning an L2 part time, with no social immersion and very little L2 media. To make this comparison fair, I argue that you need to add two more groups: 3. Children learning a home language with a few hours per day of input, and nowhere to use it in the community. 4. Fully-integrated adult immigrants who live and work professionally in the language. I know multiple people in each of these groups, and people in (1) and (4) do quite well, and people in (2) and (3) often struggle. See the heritage learner tag here at HTLAL, or just talk to parents trying to raise bilingual families. Childhood language acquisition is only guaranteed to succeed for the community language(s). I completely agree that adults can learn languages, and that they can make enormous gains in comprehension with nothing but a big stack of DVDs and trashy novels. My only objection to TV in the beginning is that it seems like a rather poor source of "i+1" input, because it doesn't provide sufficient interaction and simplification to replicate the input kids actually get. But I'm very interested to see if you find a way to bypass this. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| victorhart Bilingual Tetraglot Groupie United States mandarinexperiment.o Joined 3734 days ago 66 posts - 155 votes Speaks: English*, Portuguese*, Spanish, French Studies: Mandarin | Message 23 of 170 05 October 2014 at 11:14pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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emk, that is it, and since you've given me permission:
www.mandarinexperiment.com My results so far tend to confirm your view that it is a less-than-ideal source of "i+1" input, if I understand that correctly. Since I am making some progress and enjoying it, however, I will plug away. Regarding second language acquisition among young children, my comments are not based on research (I haven't delved into it), but rather personal experience. For instance, my brother (who did speak some English, but poorly) moved to the States at age 7 and was indistinguishable from a native speaker and performing above grade level within months. I spoke zero French at 4 years old, and learned in the streets of Niamey and at with a few hours per day at French schools. Literally in a month I was interacting normally with "playground" English, as you call it, and then did quite fine in preschool and kindergarten. In different countries and contexts I have seen that children from well educated families who are truly immersed in a second language (i.e. not put in bilingual programs) pick it up and perform like natives at school within the year. If this is not backed up by the literature, I will be curious to look into it and try to understand why. (I have seen cases where the first few months, when communication is still difficult, are quite traumatic for the children socially). I look forward to rereading several of the posts here and the many fascinating issues that were raised. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||
| luhmann Senior Member Brazil Joined 5360 days ago 156 posts - 271 votes Speaks: Portuguese* Studies: Mandarin, French, English, Italian, Spanish, Persian, Arabic (classical) | Message 24 of 170 06 October 2014 at 12:43am | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||
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Try another experiment: Learning high frequency vocabulary. Just add 20 words a day in addition to your 30 minutes of television, I am pretty sure that your listening comprehension will be about 70% in two months.
You should not deprive yourself from learning Mandarin just for the sake of an experiment. PS. You say you want to "isolate the variable", but that is taking out of it its most important function. Television does a great service to language learning, that is sewing together all the bits an pieces that you have learned into a huge web of logical associations, committing it to memory permanently. As you have already proved, you don't learn much from it alone. Edited by luhmann on 06 October 2014 at 1:33am 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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