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Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6154 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 1 of 144 10 December 2014 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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I thought I’d create a separate thread for this specific question around tutoring. I used to think that you could teach yourself without any assistance up to the CEFR level of C2. However, as I’ve looked into what is expected at C2, I’m not sure that is possible. The biggest barrier I see is the ability to produce thesis quality discussions in your target language about the language, literature and culture. This would be extremely difficult to do in your own native language without some form of guidance, at some point, from a university tutor or lecturer.
What are your thoughts on the matter ? 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 2 of 144 10 December 2014 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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I hate to make broad general statements about anything, but I truly believe that attempting to sit a CEFR
exam, especially at the higher levels (B2 and up) without using the services of a good tutor is the height of folly. It all boils down to two reasons. First of all, you need error correction. How do you know that you are making mistakes if there is no one to tell you? The second reason is that you need interaction. A significant part of the test require that you interact with the examiner(s). How can you do that without practicing. If you are seriously planning on passing a C-level exam, look for a good tutor right now. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 3 of 144 10 December 2014 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | ||
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"Is possible" leaves a lot of things open.
I think it's certainly possible, though it may not be very efficient. I know several people who are C2 in English, who have never had tuition. They just read a lot, listened a lot, and at some point spoke and wrote a lot in English. It took years for them to reach this point, but there is no question in my mind that they are at C2 level. My wife, for instance, is a philosopher, who loves to read and over about a five-year period after we met went from C1 to C2 in English. She has absolutely no interest in formal language classes, hates grammar discussions, never had a tutor, but was able to get a book accepted by MIT Press. So it's possible to get to C2 without employing a "language" tutor But everyone who writes gets feedback from peers, editors, friends, etc - so it's not like even native speakers don't get feedback on errors, which help them improve their style. However, she's never had any real feedback on her spoken language, which she's completely comfortable in - she just got that from practice. Edited by patrickwilken on 10 December 2014 at 4:27pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6154 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 4 of 144 10 December 2014 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | ||
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I should clarify that I’m not planning to sit a C2 level exam in the near future, and my question is more of a general nature. I was tempted to phrase it as, “What is the maximum level that can be reached without a tutor?” Personally, I think it would be possible to reach C1 without a tutor, but it would be difficult. C1 is equivalent to a strong entrant into university.
If I was thinking of sitting a C1 exam, I would use a tutor, as the CEFR exams follow certain structures, and the tutors would know the criteria been tested, and what to focus on. I wouldn’t use a tutor to take me all the way from B2 to C1. I would use a lot of native material, interaction with native speakers, and some DELF or DELE specific material to get close. It’s getting from C1 to C2 that I see a lot of guidance been needed. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 5 of 144 10 December 2014 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | ||
I guess I see it the other way round. Putting aside exams and tight deadlines, most of what you need for C2 is a good natural feel for the language. That comes from use. I think what got my wife's English to a really high level was writing her doctorate in English (the same thing happened to me too). If you do a lot of writing it just makes your language better. I am willing to believe that people need tutors to get to B2 or even C1, but all the people I know who are C2 in English did it without tuition. Edited by patrickwilken on 10 December 2014 at 4:39pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 6 of 144 10 December 2014 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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I guess the question isn't really whether one needs a tutor or not but what does a tutor offer that one
could get otherwise. Let's say one studies at the university level in a language in the country. There is a considerable amount of reading and writing in the language. Presumably, there is some form of corrective feedback and interaction with other speakers. In this situation a tutor is hardly necessary. My experience, and I think that of most people, is that a good professional tutor is a godsend in that we get individual personal attention. What can be better than having someone who is focused on helping you improve your language skills? Someone that will take your writing apart and help you make it better. Improve your pronunciation by pointing out your mistakes and showing you how to say things properly. And not to mention correcting your grammar mistakes. And what about just having a discussion about some topic of interest? If you can get all this is some other way, then a tutor is not needed. But for many of us who are not so lucky, that one or two hours a week with a tutor makes all the difference in the world. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4447 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French | Message 7 of 144 10 December 2014 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | ||
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A lot of learning is done outside the classroom. On a daily basis you go shopping, read a newspaper, watch TV, etc.
You also interact with people at work and in a social setting. Even if you are not residing in a country where a language is spoken, you can find people who speak specific languages to interact with. As much exposure as you can get to a language is important. Nowadays, you can practically find videos, TV programs online in many languages, many with subtitles. I know a few Chinese people in Canada who had trouble with university-level research writing but nonetheless able to function at work, shopping with their English. 1 had trouble with the use of the word "vehicle" when used in a sentence as "vehicle for change". He thought a vehicle referred to a car. In the Chinese community, people tend to have the attitude you need to enrol in a language program and attend classes. I know someone in the US who attends classes in Chinese and German. We exchange letters and E-mails in Chinese regularly. His Chinese is writing is very fluent although he claims his conversation level is weak. I spent a few weeks Hong Kong recently and read local Chinese newspapers regularly on top of the English edition of the S. China Morning Post. Back in Canada, I pick up news from Hong Kong online. I can read up to 90% of the characters in a newspaper without looking up a dictionary although my Chinese education went up to a primary school level. I went to Taiwan for a summer exchange program a few years back but have not enrolled in a language class since. On a weekly basis, I pick up as much news in Chinese as in English. I watch a lot of TV programs from China, Taiwan and Singapore besides the ones from the US & Canada. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| pesahson Diglot Senior Member Poland Joined 5731 days ago 448 posts - 840 votes Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: French, Portuguese, Norwegian | Message 8 of 144 10 December 2014 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | ||
The question is a bit confusing. It's difficult to achieve C2 without ever having any formal classes/teachers/tutors/people to guide you. Probably not impossible, but good classes or a tutor would make it more effective. Is it possible to get from B2 to C2 without a tutor? Absolutely.
I'd agree with that. There comes a moment in language learning when you don't need formal classes or a tutor. It comes before you reach C2 or native fluency of however you call it. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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