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Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 81 of 144 18 December 2014 at 6:30am | IP Logged | ||
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I think you're assuming that if you reach a decent level in pronunciation/grammar/fluency and practise it with a tutor (including the key verbs etc), none of these three will fail you at any point of the exam. You assume that you'll use your perfect level to make the vocabulary gaps insignificant, just like native speakers do.
If you're naturally talented, this can be a reasonable expectation for your best area, but definitely not for all three. You'll be nervous, tired, perhaps hungry, you may talk yourself into a corner. So minimizing the vocabulary gaps may well provide the needed support for a failure elsewhere, and it's delusional to think that after enough practice you'll be 100% flawless in these three areas. Edited by Serpent on 18 December 2014 at 6:31am 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| robarb Nonaglot Senior Member United States languagenpluson Joined 5062 days ago 361 posts - 921 votes Speaks: Portuguese, English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, French Studies: Mandarin, Danish, Russian, Norwegian, Cantonese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Greek, Latin, Nepali, Modern Hebrew | Message 82 of 144 18 December 2014 at 8:06am | IP Logged | ||
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Well, it's probably necessary to minimize vocabulary gaps in words that could be needed regardless of the topic. But
s_allard pointed out that all native speakers have vocabulary gaps on unfamiliar topics, and I pointed out that it's okay to have big vocabulary gaps in your L2 even if those topics aren't unfamiliar to you in general. As long as your general-topic core is solid, you can then keep the topics to those you're comfortable in. Pronunciation/grammar/fluency may not allow you to get around all vocabulary gaps without looking like a novice, but it would be just as "delusional" to think you could just learn all the words and be prepared for anything. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4625 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 83 of 144 18 December 2014 at 10:20am | IP Logged | ||
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I'm sure many people reach C2 through living and working in the country where the language is spoken. Conducting your domestic life in the TL will also be a huge advantage. The sheer forces of immersion and engagement are going to outstrip what language classes and tutors can offer, although it may take some considerable time.
I wonder about a couple of things. If someone becomes near-native through 20 years of immersion but doesn't perform well in an academic environment, could you actually be C2 but not pass a C2 test? Also, in countries like Holland and Sweden, English is almost like a second language to many people. If you pulled people off the streets and sat them down in front of a C2 exam paper, I'm sure some folk would pass. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 84 of 144 18 December 2014 at 11:09am | IP Logged | ||
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C2 - I don't think so.
B2-C1, sure, for the higher levels of secondary education B2 is the mandatory exit level. Some students reach C1 and if they were any good at university then they have C1-C2, but that's maybe 10% of the population. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 85 of 144 18 December 2014 at 11:42am | IP Logged | ||
IQ tests just measure IQs, which are in some way related to intelligence. It's conceivable that you can have a average IQ, but exhibit a high intelligence (say for music or writing or some other factor that is not properly captured by the test) - or because the test is somehow culturally biased. Likewise CEFR tests just measure CEFR levels, which in some way related to language ability, but having an average CEFR level doesn't necessarily imply that your language abilities aren't good for much the same reasons. Edited by patrickwilken on 18 December 2014 at 12:01pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tastyonions Triglot Senior Member United States goo.gl/UIdChYRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4668 days ago 1044 posts - 1823 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish Studies: Italian | Message 86 of 144 18 December 2014 at 11:47am | IP Logged | ||
If you had the skills that C2 measures, why would you not pass the test? If you don't have the skills that C2 measures, then you are not C2, by definition. Living in a TL country will certainly develop tons of skills, provided you aren't living in a bubble of some other language. But those skills will not necessarily be the ones measured by a C2 test. Someone who moves alone to a country and works at a restaurant by day and goes out partying by night will surely develop a lot of skills and fluency in that language, but they will never "be C2" if they never touch the more academic side of the language. "Being highly fluent and able to conduct one's life in the language" and "being C2" overlap, but they are not exactly the same thing. Edited by tastyonions on 18 December 2014 at 11:48am 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6154 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 87 of 144 18 December 2014 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | ||
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I’m starting to think it is possible to reach C2 without a tutor, albeit very difficult. It seems some people have actually achieved it. The question whether any form of guidance is needed is a little trickier. Without a tutor is seems you would need to do the following,
- Constantly engage native speakers in high level conversations. E.g. The use of alexandrine in modern French poetry. - Moving to the country would be a big plus. - Practise writing on native literature and other topics on forums. Hope you get constructive feedback. - Stop reading in your native language. - Read a lot of university texts in the language. - Watch only programs in the target language. (Similar to AJATT) - Get a professor as a penpal. - Sign up to a distance learning course in the language (However this is technically getting a tutor) Edited by DaraghM on 18 December 2014 at 12:58pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| beano Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4625 days ago 1049 posts - 2152 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Russian, Serbian, Hungarian | Message 88 of 144 18 December 2014 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | ||
Is C2 really so steeped in academia that you have to bury yourself in university texts and correspond mainly with professors? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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