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Is C2 possible without a tutor ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes  Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 113 of 144 21 December 2014 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | |||||
One thing that really intrigues me is how Learner 1 can speak perfect German (score 100 on the speaking test) and fail both the writing and listening test. And when you consider that you only need a 60/100 to pass the test, it is mystifying to me how someone can speak perfectly yet bomb the listening test. I may be wrong, but the only explanation that I can think of is sheer cockiness and carelessness on the test. This probably led to a lot of silly mistakes that cost many points. The end result of all this is that both learners did not pass the test. In my neck of the woods, the C2 test for Spanish costs around $230 CAD. That's money down the drain. Now it's maybe a six-month wait and another $230 to be shelled out. Maybe 10 hours of professional tutoring would have avoided all that. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 114 of 144 21 December 2014 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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He clearly speaks better than he understands :-)
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| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4536 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 115 of 144 21 December 2014 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
You could say that about many people. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 116 of 144 21 December 2014 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
S_allard's nuggets of wisdom aside, I do not think writing practice hurts. I'm someone that was actually pretty bad at essaywriting and things during my high school days - I used my English classes to get better at it because it was an exam requirement (I did the IB as well, for the national English exam it doesn't matter as much). That's not only because you need to get as many corrections as possible, but because writing well and capably is an art that many at university find difficult. It takes a lot of practice to do it correctly. I do not think you can start writing the things you need to do in your professional life and say you can just do them freehand. I'm quite a capable writer nowadays but that is more down to practice. And it had nothing to do with my English - my English grammar and vocabulary was always way ahead of most people's and people were aware of that. It's about an actual skill you need to learn, one that's almost separate from language learning. I'm a good writer in most languages mostly because I'm an excellent writer in English (I have more practice doing it in English than Dutch!), and it's something you need to practice separately. For a C1/C2 exam, it depends on the language/institution what the exact requirements are, but it's worth practicing in detail. Writing correctly is an art. I do not think you can get away with not doing this, unless you're already a proficient writer and can produce coherent text in other languages. Then all you need is the grammar/vocabulary knowledge to transfer that properly, and the cultural knowledge/idiomatics to make it sound right. But that's something individual - I would have to take a look at the student and see what they need.
It never hurts to have the mileage behind you. The problem is that at B1, you do not yet have the required precision to formulate all of your texts coherently. This is something I noticed in French when I first started practicing it. I was used to writing in Dutch and English, where my structural knowledge is very sound even by native standards. I thought I could do the same in French, but then I started writing and got back a whole lot of red crosses! It turned out, that I really had to work on my accuracy! The B1/B2 stage, in my mind, is all about gaining familiarity with the more complex parts of the language that still are in fairly common use. It's about learning to differentiate between good, great, awesome, legendary and epic. For this, writing exercises are perfect at that level because this is the time where you can practice using that type of semi-common vocabulary without which elegance is simply impossible. At B2 it's, in my view, inescapable. At B1, it may be facultative, but for me it was an eye-opener to do it at French B1.1 level even and it was the single thing that got me further at that point in time, together with reading. Those two things combined allowed me to improve at breakneck speed, and consequently my average grades hovered at around 90%. Writing allows you to become familiar with and feel how you should express yourself in that language. There is so much that you do not know or cannot guess at that level that the external improvement is really beneficial. By the way, I was taking group classes at the time, and I eventually quit because I found that I disliked the actual class but liked the more advanced/extra material. So do you have to? No, but it's hugely beneficial if you do. I can recommend it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 117 of 144 21 December 2014 at 9:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It was a reference to a famous thread :)
I don't necessarily think it's money down the drain btw. How much would it cost to work with a tutor who knows the real thing? Where's the guarantee? I remember filling out a survey that also included your reasons for taking the exam - things like work, citizenship etc. One of them was "to get feedback for my language skills". Sure, that's kind of expensive, but along with the experience of actually taking the exam, it may well be worth it? Now they will have a much clearer idea of what to work on, and if they go for tutoring they can look for several narrowly specialized ones and have 2-3 sessions with each, with long gaps and massive independent work in between. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6600 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 118 of 144 21 December 2014 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | |||||
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@tarvos
I'm not against practice, I just think corrections are overrated :) And sure, ideally you need to do a lot of writing, and a lot of reading, and a lot of listening and a lot of speaking too. There *is* often a false dichotomy in this kind of discussions, but we do have limited time, so in reality we prioritize one or the other. I can give you many arguments for massive listening and neither of us will be wrong :-) It probably depends on the language too - I'll be the first to admit that massive listening in Danish has been a disappointment for me. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4710 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 119 of 144 21 December 2014 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
I like massive listening but I prefer it as an extensive, not an intensive thing. And I usually use it more as relaxation than as a specific goal, because for me listening isn't all that important. Edited by tarvos on 21 December 2014 at 9:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5433 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 120 of 144 21 December 2014 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm always struck by how people tend to overestimate their language skills. If taking a language test is
a way of getting a reality check, it is a rather expensive one. Where I live, most people take language tests because of very specific requirements. Just yesterday I was talking with a Romanian accountant who will be sitting an oral French test on January 13 in order to get the right to work as an accountant. That's in about three weeks. If that were me, I'd be working on that test right now and certainly with a professional tutor. I was once contacted by a person who had to pass a university admissions French test three days later. A lot of people don't realize how serious this whole business is. In some cases, people get one chance to pass a test at the required level. As has been pointed out by tarvos, writing, and I would add speaking, well requires a ton of practice. I personally feel that external guidance is necessary but some people don't. You can't learn to write well week before the exam. I would also add that having a friend correct a few pages is not exactly the same as working with a professional tutor. I wrote a few posts back about what I felt what makes a good tutor. This was promptly pooh-poohed but this is too serious to be left to amateurs. Edited by s_allard on 22 December 2014 at 1:28am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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