Vocabulary and/vs. Structure (Advice Center) Language Learning Forum

Vocabulary and/vs. Structure
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Platiquemos
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Panama
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Message 1 of 6

01 May 2005 at 11:38am | IP Logged

Below is an e-mail exchange I had with a student some time ago. It's kind of verbose, but I think makes some valid points about vocabulary vs. structure. This may not be appropriate for the Beginner forum, but it seemed so to me. I'm sure if it's not the moderators will catch it. For ALL of you beginners: there is only one absolutely rigid and unbreakable rule for language learning: DON'T GIVE UP!!! Keep at it even when you think you're getting nowhere and you WILL learn, guaranteed. Equally guaranteed, if you quit trying you'll never learn.

email wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: xxxxxx, Keith To: don@platiquemos-letstalk.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 11:23 PM Subject: A QuestionAbout how many words does the entire platiqumos course cover?

I�ve read that about 1500 words covers
85% of the basic language. And 3000 Cover 95% is this correct?
Thanks, Keith
------------

Hi, Keith-
You�ve raised a complex and contentious issue here.
How many words you need to know varies greatly from person to person, depending on individual habits and needs. For example, a semi-literate field worker probably doesn �t use even 500 different "words" in a typical day, and may very well have a meaningful command of only about a thousand. On the other hand, an educated person who wants to keep up with the news, engage in meaningful conversation, and perhaps read a novel in Spanish, would find even 3,000 to be insufficient.

Then comes the issue of what do we count as words. Do we count "am", "is", "are", "was", "were" as words, or only the infinitive [to] "be"? As far as dictionaries are concerned, it �s almost always just the infinitive--but in practice the different forms of the verb are just as important to know for communication as nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc.Second, the mind-set of those who emphasize the number of "words" a person needs tends to neglect what I (and many scientific linguists, including those who developed the original FSI Basic Course) believe: that vocabulary by itself is not very useful, but memorizing word lists is time consuming. Even having memorized 10,000 "words" is of little value without being able to put them together to form meaningful utterances; i.e., without having a good command of the structure--or to use a word many of us hate--grammar of the language.

It is important to know on a very deep level a good stock of examples of "regular" verbs (in Spanish the �ar, �er, and �ir verbs), and be able to readily and rapidly "conjugate" them in speaking or to understand them in reading or listening. The same is true of irregular verbs, including those that are sub-classes of regular verbs, such as stem vowel changing �er verbs, as well as those that are so irregular they must be learned individually: ir "to go" is a good example. Of course, this kind of command of the structure of the language cannot be attained without also acquiring along the way a pretty good stock of nouns, adjectives, etc.The issue then becomes for the learner (and for those who claim to be able to help the learner, whether through materials or personal instruction) where to spend most of the many hours it takes to either acquire a large vocabulary, or to assimilate the structure of the language so that the vocabulary can be used meaningfully. The original authors of the FSI Basic Course chose to concentrate on structure, and Platiquemos emulates this approach.This does not mean that you don�t learn vocabulary with Platiquemos (the entire course contains about 3,300 "words"), only that the vocabulary in the form of nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc., is learned within a structural context, not as isolated vocabulary units to be memorized from lists.My own philosophy, which has served me well in over 25 years of seriously using Spanish both in my previous professional life and now as a facilitator of others� learning is that vocabulary, especially nouns, beyond a relatively small stock of very common ones, is the easy part. A word (except for verb forms, which to me are "words") can easily be looked up in a dictionary or you can ask somebody. The important thing then is being able to use that "word" to form a meaningful communication. Platiquemos, like the original FSI Basic Course, places most emphasis on acquiring at a deep, almost subconscious, level the structures of the Spanish language. This in itself is a big task (those who peddle miracle solutions to the contrary notwithstanding), but in the process a significant amount of vocabulary is also acquired.
To sum up, Platiquemos is mostly about acquiring a command of the structures of the language sufficient to use in oral communication (meaning almost automatically, since in a conversation there isn�t much time to think about what to say). Vocabulary learned along the way, including the most important part, regular and irregular verbs, is learned through examples in sentences, not through memorizing lists. The total count in Platiquemos is about 3,300 words, more than enough for most normal, everyday communication. To go further and be able to use Spanish proficiently in one�s business or profession will require the acquisition of additional vocabulary. If, however, you have mastered the structure of the language as presented in Platiquemos, you will be able to use that additional vocabulary, whether from a dictionary or asking a native speaker through circumlocution, meaningfully and accurately.I hope this information will be of some use to you. Please bear in mind that I don�t pretend to be an "expert"; I have just through happenstance and a lot of hard work learned through experience something of what it takes to learn languages. Please forgive the length of this message; your questions could have been answered directly in a couple of sentences. I do think it is important, though, to have some understanding of the vital role that structure plays in attaining meaningful proficiency.

As always, I close with my best wishes for your success in learning Spanish. Don Casteel

Edited by administrator on 01 May 2005 at 12:20pm
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thinkbluecollar
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Message 2 of 6

01 May 2005 at 6:07pm | IP Logged

My French teacher has always hammered into us how learning every word in French is useless if you don't know the grammar. It's quite a relief, as I can't remember vocab for the life of me, but I can cosntruct a grammatically correct French sentence with limited vocab in a snap. However, she also uses a bit of a dry, albeit effect, method to teaching us French that tends to be boring, although classes stop being so boring after French I, or so I've heard, as that is when students who don't want to be there can drop it. Which, of course, leaves just the motivated students, and she doesn't need to drill things in to make them stick as much.

It's really a shame though, as after she retires they plan to drop the French program, and I'll barely be able to take the regents, and can't do French IV, something that puts me at a marked disadvantage to the Spanish students.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, by the way. I like talking about myself a lot. It's sort of an extension of how I really like myself a lot.
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victor
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Message 3 of 6

01 May 2005 at 7:52pm | IP Logged

thinkbluecollar: I agree with you and your French teacher. Grammar gives you the power to create sentences. I think most members on this board agree that though we shouldn't cram grammar into our head, it is necessary to learn it.

Grammar and vocabulary are important aspects of a language. There are many ways you can learn them and neither has to be painful.
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Monox D. I-Fly
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Message 4 of 6

10 November 2010 at 6:37am | IP Logged

But if we just depend on the grammar, our language skill will be hard to be developed because all we will be able to do is just speaking formally as opposite to which people use daily.
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Cainntear
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Message 5 of 6

10 November 2010 at 5:57pm | IP Logged

Aside from the fact that you've resurrected a thread that's been dormant for 5 years, and whose originator has sadly passed on...

Monox D. I-Fly wrote:

But if we just depend on the grammar, our language skill will be hard to be developed because all we will be able to do is just speaking formally as opposite to which people use daily.

No-one depends on "just" grammar. But the idea that colloquial speech is in some way "ungrammatical" is a myth. Everything we say is based on grammar. Sometimes colloquial speech varies the grammar, but these variations are consistent.

When we study grammar, we study something that is infinitely reusable. When we study fixed phrases or specific vocabulary, it is limited.

If we start with a stronger focus on grammar, as Don suggests, then not only do we learn a lot in a small time, but when we spend more time on vocabulary and phrases at a later date, our knowledge of grammar will allow us to do more things with them.

EG. when I studied pets in high school French, I could say "I have a dog". But because I didn't know grammar, just the set phrases, I couldn't point at my homework book and say "the dog did it". I couldn't tell you the dog ran away. I couldn't tell you that the dog had just died. The end result was that to learn the word for "dog", all I could do was read the word itself, or say that I did/didn't have a dog. That was extremely boring.
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hrhenry
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Message 6 of 6

10 November 2010 at 11:25pm | IP Logged

I have to agree that grammar is important.

Many years ago (decades, actually), when I was learning Spanish my teachers had always stressed grammar over vocabulary, reasoning that if you knew how to construct basic tenses, with subjects, objects, adverbs and adjectives, you would then be able to string together whatever you may need to communicate. Granted, for a native English speaker, that's not all that difficult to learn, particularly given the amount of time I had taken classes.

They were absolutely correct. After studying Spanish for 4 years, I moved to Mexico. Upon arrival, I was pretty horrified to learn that I had trouble understanding what people were saying, although I could speak and get my point across reasonably well. The problem was vocabulary. I lacked localized vocabulary. But within a matter of a few weeks - less than two months - I was up and running. I only needed to concentrate on vocabulary. The rest was already there and I had no reason to worry about it.

I'll also mention that all my Mexican friends were impressed at how rapid my progress appeared. A sudden burst of vocabulary growth is much more noticeable to people you are in contact with on a daily basis than an increase in grammar knowledge.

Ever since then, I've approached language learning by getting the grammar foundation down first, then concentrating on vocabulary. It's not failed me yet.

R.
==

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