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Sima
Diglot
Newbie
United States
Joined 6054 days ago
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Speaks: Mandarin, English
| Message 73 of 97 03 May 2008 at 9:48pm | IP Logged |
The conclusion of the Nature paper is interesting. Statistical analysis of large data set is often more convincing than hypothesis based on limited number of cases. Howerer, the researchers might have chosen Indo-European languages for a reason. (I think) many of them have retained a large portion of what they had when branching out of other languages. Therefore tracing back to the "branching point" is relatively less difficult. As we look closer, we realize that neither Hungarian nor Chinese is a member of the Indo-European language family. The "proto-language" concept probably is not an ideal tool for languages that had high level of interactions with others over the centuries when ethnic groups migrated and integrated. Those searching for a tree would likely find themselves in a jungle.
A language evoles not only by inheriting from parent but also by exchanging with others. The Hungarian-Chinese link probably reflects more of historic contacts between ancient Chinese and Hungarian ancestors than their relevance to a common "proto-language". While Vlad is full of intuition and passion in language studies, he might be on a delusive track in this aspect.
People have long noticed that Hungarian words for father (apa, atya) and mother (anya) mean exactly the same in a large part of China. Musicians found folk songs of Chinese Yugu minority, living in middle reach the Yellow River, have the patterns of old Hungarian country music recorded in 19th century. There are anecdotal reports that people from an unspecified region in Gansu province (upper to middle reach of the Yellow River) traveled to Hungary and found its language similar to their home tongue. Interestingly, this is the same region where Xiongnu once roamed for centuries.
In fact, Hungarian word no(umlaut) means daughter in Wu language(Estern China). I looked at a short list of tourist Hungarian and found some interesting similarities. Hungarian words for honey, leather, vegetable sound very close to Chinese. The most striking examples are: Hungarian for thank, kosz(umlaut) sounds thank in Wu, and Hungarian for thank YOU, koszonom(all umlaut) sounds precisely thank YOU!
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| Gül Baba
Triglot
Newbie
Hungary
erikreadingbooks.blo
Joined 6659 days ago
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Speaks: Hungarian*, Romanian, English
Studies: Turkish
| Message 74 of 97 26 October 2008 at 3:45am | IP Logged |
Sima wrote:
The conclusion of the Nature paper is interesting. Statistical analysis of large data set is often more convincing than hypothesis based on limited number of cases. Howerer, the researchers might have chosen Indo-European languages for a reason. (I think) many of them have retained a large portion of what they had when branching out of other languages. Therefore tracing back to the "branching point" is relatively less difficult. As we look closer, we realize that neither Hungarian nor Chinese is a member of the Indo-European language family. The "proto-language" concept probably is not an ideal tool for languages that had high level of interactions with others over the centuries when ethnic groups migrated and integrated. Those searching for a tree would likely find themselves in a jungle.
A language evoles not only by inheriting from parent but also by exchanging with others. The Hungarian-Chinese link probably reflects more of historic contacts between ancient Chinese and Hungarian ancestors than their relevance to a common "proto-language". While Vlad is full of intuition and passion in language studies, he might be on a delusive track in this aspect.
People have long noticed that Hungarian words for father (apa, atya) and mother (anya) mean exactly the same in a large part of China. Musicians found folk songs of Chinese Yugu minority, living in middle reach the Yellow River, have the patterns of old Hungarian country music recorded in 19th century. There are anecdotal reports that people from an unspecified region in Gansu province (upper to middle reach of the Yellow River) traveled to Hungary and found its language similar to their home tongue. Interestingly, this is the same region where Xiongnu once roamed for centuries.
In fact, Hungarian word no(umlaut) means daughter in Wu language(Estern China). I looked at a short list of tourist Hungarian and found some interesting similarities. Hungarian words for honey, leather, vegetable sound very close to Chinese. The most striking examples are: Hungarian for thank, kosz(umlaut) sounds thank in Wu, and Hungarian for thank YOU, koszonom(all umlaut) sounds precisely thank YOU!
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In fact there is no such language as Chinese as there are many languages spoken the main one being Mandarin the state language. In fact mostly the simmilarities mentioned in this forum have to do with the turkic languages like the one spoken by Uygurs who are a minority in China and known for their separatism. You have to be aware
of this facts.
Quote:
HUNGARIAN FOLK SONGS TRACED TO UIGHURS
After years of research, Hungarian scholars have discovered a relationship between Hungarian folk music and the music the of Yellow Uighurs or Yugurs.
A Buddhist Turkic people, the Yugurs are closely related to the Uighurs of Eastern Turkestan. According to the Chinese historical chronicles the Uighurs are the direct descendants of the Huns or the Xingno. By the 10th century most of the Uighurs in Eastern Turkestan had embraced Islam, but those living along the border areas between Eastern Turkestan and the Gansu province of China, preserved their ancient Yellow Sect of Lamaist Buddhism and became known as Yugurs. Their language is closely related to that of the Huns. Around 350 A.D. the Huns conquered the Alans on the steppe north of the Black Sea and subsequently moved to the Hungarian plain. The Huns made the Hungarian plain the center of an empire that stretched from the Caspian Sea to the Rhine. Though it disintegrated quickly after their leader Attila's sudden death in 453, the Huns may have left in Europe more of their culture than originally believed. It mixed with that of other peoples, principally the Magyars of the Finno-Ugric language group originally beyond the Urals and later in south Russia. The Huns are considered the forefathers of the present Hungarian state, their culture and speak an older version of the Uighur language.
Thus, the music which the Hum carried with them to Hungary and that which the Yugurs preserved in Gansu stand at either end of what scholars like Bartok and Kodally termed the "pentatonic scale belt." Created by the westward migrations, it stretches from Gansu, Eastern and Western Turkestan past the Caspian and Black Seas into Hungary.
According to the Hungarian scholars the folk songs of the western part of the Yugur Autonomous county and those of Hungary are similar in three respects: melodies; musical characteristics (both with a pentatonic scale); and rule and form in phrasing. For instance, the Yugur song The Girl Adang and a Hungarian one about gypsies eating cheese are so alike in all three respects that they seem to be only variations of the same song.
Moreover, according to the scholars, a number of words appearing in the songs of both nationalities are pronounced nearly the same way. They include words for mother, grand mother, apple, yellow, dark clouds and courage. The word "belly", a soothing refrain in the Cradle Song of the Yugurs is quite similar to a song of the Hungarians.
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Source
HUNGARIAN FOLK SONGS TRACED TO UIGHURS
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| Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7156 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish
| Message 75 of 97 27 October 2008 at 3:18pm | IP Logged |
Gül Baba wrote:
Sima wrote:
The conclusion of the Nature paper is interesting. Statistical analysis of large data set is often more convincing than hypothesis based on limited number of cases. Howerer, the researchers might have chosen Indo-European languages for a reason. (I think) many of them have retained a large portion of what they had when branching out of other languages. Therefore tracing back to the "branching point" is relatively less difficult. As we look closer, we realize that neither Hungarian nor Chinese is a member of the Indo-European language family. The "proto-language" concept probably is not an ideal tool for languages that had high level of interactions with others over the centuries when ethnic groups migrated and integrated. Those searching for a tree would likely find themselves in a jungle.
A language evoles not only by inheriting from parent but also by exchanging with others. The Hungarian-Chinese link probably reflects more of historic contacts between ancient Chinese and Hungarian ancestors than their relevance to a common "proto-language". While Vlad is full of intuition and passion in language studies, he might be on a delusive track in this aspect.
People have long noticed that Hungarian words for father (apa, atya) and mother (anya) mean exactly the same in a large part of China. Musicians found folk songs of Chinese Yugu minority, living in middle reach the Yellow River, have the patterns of old Hungarian country music recorded in 19th century. There are anecdotal reports that people from an unspecified region in Gansu province (upper to middle reach of the Yellow River) traveled to Hungary and found its language similar to their home tongue. Interestingly, this is the same region where Xiongnu once roamed for centuries.
In fact, Hungarian word no(umlaut) means daughter in Wu language(Estern China). I looked at a short list of tourist Hungarian and found some interesting similarities. Hungarian words for honey, leather, vegetable sound very close to Chinese. The most striking examples are: Hungarian for thank, kosz(umlaut) sounds thank in Wu, and Hungarian for thank YOU, koszonom(all umlaut) sounds precisely thank YOU!
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In fact there is no such language as Chinese as there are many languages spoken the main one being Mandarin the state language. In fact mostly the simmilarities mentioned in this forum have to do with the turkic languages like the one spoken by Uygurs who are a minority in China and known for their separatism. You have to be aware
of this facts. |
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Which similarities are we talking about? The linguistic ones or the musical ones?
1 person has voted this message useful
| LanguageGeek
Triglot
Senior Member
GermanyRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6107 days ago
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Speaks: German*, English, Hungarian
Studies: French, Russian
| Message 76 of 97 27 October 2008 at 3:44pm | IP Logged |
The similarities between Hungarian and Turkic are mostly typological. Apart from that Hungarian has an old layer of appr. 350 Bolgar-Turkic words. It is quite conceivable that the ancient Magyars assimilated surviving tribes of the Hun confederatin, thus incorporating some of their language.
The often touted Hun-Scythian-Sumer link, the pet peeve of Hungarian nationalists, is not tenable and lacks any scientific support. Hungarian is Uralic. There is no link to Chinese.
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| Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 7156 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish
| Message 77 of 97 27 October 2008 at 4:33pm | IP Logged |
LanguageGeek wrote:
The similarities between Hungarian and Turkic are mostly typological. Apart from that Hungarian has an old layer of appr. 350 Bolgar-Turkic words. It is quite conceivable that the ancient Magyars assimilated surviving tribes of the Hun confederatin, thus incorporating some of their language.
The often touted Hun-Scythian-Sumer link, the pet peeve of Hungarian nationalists, is not tenable and lacks any scientific support. Hungarian is Uralic. There is no link to Chinese. |
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I think that you mean it is the "pet theory" rather than "pet peeve" of Hungarian nationalists.
For me, there is likely a connection between the ancient Hungarians, Huns and Scythians but it's just based on the premise that Central Asia was a melting pot of tribes and confederations and that some tribes gradually intermarried or were absorbed by each other. However this deals more with ethnicity rather than the linguistic background.
Hungarian is indeed best classified as an Uralic language but this does not preclude the possibility that Uralic languages could have a genetic relationship with other language families. Unfortunately, comparative linguistics today takes an all-or-nothing approach with the "lumpers" and "splitters" vehemently taking shots at each other. I believe that it'd be preferable for them to cooperate and conduct credible joint research to determine if there's truly something more to the widely-accepted classification scheme that we have today.
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| LanguageGeek
Triglot
Senior Member
GermanyRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 6107 days ago
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Speaks: German*, English, Hungarian
Studies: French, Russian
| Message 78 of 97 28 October 2008 at 5:18pm | IP Logged |
Thanks for pointing out my mistake Chung. I indeed ment to say pet theory. Looking at the customs and rites of the old Hungarians, one can't help but point to Asia. The fact that the language has been proven to be most closely related to poor fishermen up north in the Russian tundra didn't go down too well with some Hungarians. Who wouldn't want to see his ancestors being portrayed as glorious equestrian warriors if the alternative is rather bland?
Anyways, it is time and again a fascinating endeavor if one tries to reconstruct the history of the Eurasiatic nomads. I am happy I can access the material that floats on the internet written in Hungarian. And notwithstanding the fact that most of it is pretty crackpot and unscientific, it makes for a good read anytime :)
1 person has voted this message useful
| Gül Baba
Triglot
Newbie
Hungary
erikreadingbooks.blo
Joined 6659 days ago
17 posts - 18 votes
Speaks: Hungarian*, Romanian, English
Studies: Turkish
| Message 79 of 97 02 November 2008 at 5:28am | IP Logged |
Chung wrote:
Gül Baba wrote:
Sima wrote:
The conclusion of the Nature paper is interesting. Statistical analysis of large data set is often more convincing than hypothesis based on limited number of cases. Howerer, the researchers might have chosen Indo-European languages for a reason. (I think) many of them have retained a large portion of what they had when branching out of other languages. Therefore tracing back to the "branching point" is relatively less difficult. As we look closer, we realize that neither Hungarian nor Chinese is a member of the Indo-European language family. The "proto-language" concept probably is not an ideal tool for languages that had high level of interactions with others over the centuries when ethnic groups migrated and integrated. Those searching for a tree would likely find themselves in a jungle.
A language evoles not only by inheriting from parent but also by exchanging with others. The Hungarian-Chinese link probably reflects more of historic contacts between ancient Chinese and Hungarian ancestors than their relevance to a common "proto-language". While Vlad is full of intuition and passion in language studies, he might be on a delusive track in this aspect.
People have long noticed that Hungarian words for father (apa, atya) and mother (anya) mean exactly the same in a large part of China. Musicians found folk songs of Chinese Yugu minority, living in middle reach the Yellow River, have the patterns of old Hungarian country music recorded in 19th century. There are anecdotal reports that people from an unspecified region in Gansu province (upper to middle reach of the Yellow River) traveled to Hungary and found its language similar to their home tongue. Interestingly, this is the same region where Xiongnu once roamed for centuries.
In fact, Hungarian word no(umlaut) means daughter in Wu language(Estern China). I looked at a short list of tourist Hungarian and found some interesting similarities. Hungarian words for honey, leather, vegetable sound very close to Chinese. The most striking examples are: Hungarian for thank, kosz(umlaut) sounds thank in Wu, and Hungarian for thank YOU, koszonom(all umlaut) sounds precisely thank YOU!
|
|
|
In fact there is no such language as Chinese as there are many languages spoken the main one being Mandarin the state language. In fact mostly the simmilarities mentioned in this forum have to do with the turkic languages like the one spoken by Uygurs who are a minority in China and known for their separatism. You have to be aware
of this facts. |
|
|
Which similarities are we talking about? The linguistic ones or the musical ones? |
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If you have read my quote (HUNGARIAN FOLK SONGS TRACED TO UIGHURS ) you might have noticed that it talks about language and music. The Yugurs, people of Gansu province of China speak a turkic language.
So the majority of simmilarities mentioned in this topic, regarded as simmilarities to Chinese have to do in fact with turkic languages and not mandarin. The Uyghurs speak a turkic language.
It's a mistake to put everything to the same basket and just lable: 'Chinese'.
You have to keep in mind Chinese were conquered by Mongols and long before had contact with turkic people.
1 person has voted this message useful
| Gül Baba
Triglot
Newbie
Hungary
erikreadingbooks.blo
Joined 6659 days ago
17 posts - 18 votes
Speaks: Hungarian*, Romanian, English
Studies: Turkish
| Message 80 of 97 02 November 2008 at 7:06am | IP Logged |
LanguageGeek wrote:
Thanks for pointing out my mistake Chung. I indeed ment to say pet theory. Looking at the customs and rites of the old Hungarians, one can't help but point to Asia. The fact that the language has been proven to be most closely related to poor fishermen up north in the Russian tundra didn't go down too well with some Hungarians. Who wouldn't want to see his ancestors being portrayed as glorious equestrian warriors if the alternative is rather bland?
Anyways, it is time and again a fascinating endeavor if one tries to reconstruct the history of the Eurasiatic nomads. I am happy I can access the material that floats on the internet written in Hungarian. And notwithstanding the fact that most of it is pretty crackpot and unscientific, it makes for a good read anytime :) |
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You should know language, race, history do not go allways hand in hand. Anthropologically (and even finno-ugrist recognize that) the conquerer hungarians and present day hungarians
were/are far away from Khants and Mansis (other two ugric people).
Also the Yakuts (turkic nation) of eastern Siberia were fishermen. We were talking about language relationship.
As a Hungarian I am not ashamed of being related to the Ugrics or even the Turks.
Even if it's only on linguistic level. I am also aware that Hungarians were influenced
by Turkic people and many of them joined our ranks. I mention the Cumanians.
Also I don't think it's a nationalistic thing if someone speaks of the Turkic relatedness. And yes Hungarians are nut Turks, but also coining such terms as "finno-ugric nations or culture" is pretty void of content and artificial as we are speaking of language relatedness (nyelvrokonság). Also be aware that finno-ugrism has also it's crackpot, far-fetched ideas.
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