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LearningSpanishLikeCrazy (LSLC) w/ FSI | ||
Tags: Fake Reviews | LSLC | Platiquemos | Pimsleur | Reading | FSI | Book | Grammar | English | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
| Platiquemos Hexaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Panama platiquemos-letstalk Joined 7190 days ago 126 posts - 141 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish | Message 145 of 193 22 June 2005 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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I've been out of touch, traveling and with a spell of pneumonia. So this is sort of a "catch up" response, mostly to the several messages from "NYC_Trini_Span".
First, while I don't want to be insulting or hurt NYCTS's feelings, I hope he's teaching immigrants, not "immagrants", and that he's doing something other than "mimmicking". While the first may just be a typo, the "mimmick" obviously isn't, and doesn't give me much confidence in NYCTS's knowledge of English, let alone Spanish. Second, he mentions in one of his posts that one of his students? teachers? told him his accent is near perfect. One of the most important things a Spanish learner needs to know about Latin Americans is that their concept of politeness leads them to sometimes grossly exaggerate in complimenting the learner on his/her Spanish. Of course, I may be wrong--I've only lived in four L.A. countries for a total of about ten years. What I usually tell people who report such compliments to me (and whose Spanish I know isn't very good from listening to them) is that when your Spanish is really good they (Latinos) won't tell you how good it is, they'll just talk to you. The "rolling" of the r's is another issue entirely which has little or nothing to do with a "program". Third, he says: "If you are looking for the ONE course that would take you from no spanish to fluent, there is none." I'd really like to know on what he bases this authoritative statement. Research? Personal experience? The fact is that the Foreign Service Institute for years using the Basic Course (and the Programmatic, although I don't like it) has been routinely taking people with no knowledge of Spanish to the FSI "3" or ACTFL "superior" level without study or residence in a Spanish-speaking country. By the way, "fluent" is one of the most meaningless terms in the English language. If you want to talk about a person's "fluency" in an American context use either FSI's or ACTFL's proficiency scales (details are here: http://www.platiquemos-letstalk.com/About/Proficiency.htm (There is a similar European scale with which I'm not very familiar.) For anyone who might be interested, my last tested rating from FSI was a 4. I retired soon thereafter so never had a chance to try for improvement. Somewhere else, NYC_Trini_Span says perhaps the main reason he's so taken with Crazy is that he's learned much more than in high school Spanish. A true statement. Of course, the same could be said of almost any program--or none at all--in view of the fact that American high schools do such a lousy job of teaching languages. In fact, by general consensus on FLTeach (an internet discussion forum for language teachers), fewer than half of American high school language teachers could achieve an FSI 2 or ACTFL advanced rating--and these are not terribly high ratings. Sadly, very, very few Americans are able to judge a language teaching program with any accuracy--they just don't know enough about language learning (the situation with Europeans may be different). To me that means that the whole deal is trust. If I tell you that program X can teach you Tibetan, you probably have little choice but a) to trust that I know what I'm talking about, and b) that I'm telling the truth. That is largely why to me the ethics of how a program is promoted (which has been the subject of most of this thread) is so important. Finally, I'd be very interested in what Mr. Crazy's own tested proficiency is. The FSI test is only available to government employees, but the ACTFL test can be had for a reasonable fee and administered by telephone (details are at the url above). Probably he just doesn't have time. Finally, I have no intention of paying for Crazy to be able to comment on its merits, but I did obtain a copy of FSI's FAST (Familiarization and Short-Term Training) course which Mr. Crazy told us in his original sales pitch was a closely guarded secret which he uniquely had gotten hold of. (If you've got $180 you can get the original from the National Technical Information Service of the Department of Commerce) The FAST course was published in 1983, and my Spanish study at FSI was in 1975, so I'd never heard of it. It's an odd little (little by FSI standards--574 pages of text and 10 cassettes, with a very strong warning that it is NOT for self study)course, very different from the others I'm familiar with. It was obviously produced for people (administrative personnel, secretaries--and political appointee ambassadors who usually don't have any knowledge of either the language or the country they're being sent to, and don't have time to learn) who were not considered to have the need for the thorough knowledge of Spanish of, say, political or consular officers. It is organized on a situational basis (in a restaurant, asking directions), rather than on a structural basis like the Basic and Programmatic courses. FAST Spanish provides for "survival" skills (and on a fairly high level), but would never equip a student to take part in a serious conversation, read political articles in a newspaper, etc. I'm planning to edit it (it will be a lot of work) for self-study, and offer it to folks who don't really want to get involved in thoroughly learning the language, just enough to "get by". Finally, my main point in this too-long message is to pointedly ask Mr. Crazy Patrick just how good his Spanish is, and can he prove it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| crylant Groupie United States cjrylantwealthmanage Joined 7225 days ago 85 posts - 85 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 146 of 193 25 June 2005 at 11:28am | IP Logged | ||
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I wanted to give an update on my progress with LSLC. My first post on this product was back in March of 2005. At that time I was working on lesson 12 or 13. It is now June 2005 and I am on lesson 22.
I am now less enthusiastic about the product. I still believe the product is good but I have a hard time staying motivated with it. I have two lessons left of Pimsleur. Since I began Pimsleur, about six months ago, a day rarely went by that I skiped a lesson. I cannot say the same for LSLC. For some reason, that I cannot understand, I am having difficulty retaining the information on the LSLC lessons. I think there is too much information per lesson and I have to repeat them numerous times before moving on. The LSLC lessons also don't repeat the information in future lessons as much as in Pimsleur. This is both good and bad because the LSLC lessons provide so much more voculary than the Pimsleur lessons do but I have to repeat them so much more. With Pimsleur I did each lesson two times, never more or less. I think this motivated me more because I see progress faster. I imagine FSI is similar to LSLC and not as effortless as Pimsleur. So far I have learned many more grammer principals with LSLC than I did with Pimsleur but I think the vocabulary I learned with Pimsleur will be retained better. I will post again when I get throught the entire program. I want to beging FSI soon so I can then compare the three programs. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| NYC_Trini_Span Diglot Groupie United States Joined 7251 days ago 60 posts - 66 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish | Message 147 of 193 07 July 2005 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | ||
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Platiquemos, hello I enjoy your post because it questions the thoughts and ideas i've put forth, which is the real reason for any post, albeit they usually turn into petty arguments. I will answer as thoroughly as possible in the time i have.
English knowledge: The main reason for any word mistakenly spelled is the fact that i only have internet access at work, and usually read/post in the forum on lunch. My priorities at that moment are not at all on spelling correctly and in fact i am prone to shorten words like "because" into "bcuz". Couple that with the fact that i can't type well with more than 3 fingers and add in the fact that i hit the "post" button with barely a skim thru (<--) of what was previously written. By no means do i subject my students to the frivolous nature of my *lunch hour grammar, but i will say that my lesson plans are well thought out and carefully written on my board. Accent: It was actually a student but it was not an isolated incident. a lot of it has to do that w/ the fact that when i was 5 i was part of a special program (due to top english comprehension scores) and spent my school year learning Spanish. Soon after i retained friends and the like who would converse with me daily. My cunada (sis-in-law) and her family and i go back about 12 years now and trust me when i say its customary for her brothers, etc. and I to say the most honest, but wickedly truthful things to each other. They never knew i loved the language because i had been embarrassed to speak what little i remembered form my youth. When i went out to the country and spoke they were floored, and mostly it was the accent. They mainly said verbatim, that "you sound like you could be form Mexico or the caribbean at the same time, the accent you have is hard to place but it's not an american one for sure". And these are guys that get off on hurting eachothers feeling for fun. Same thing in NYC- i spoke to a woman the other day and she rattled off a million words at me, when i stopped her she was like " i thought you were cuban 'cause you sound like my cuban friend". I do believe some people are being nice but i also believe my sis and the others were truthful. Fluent:I base my statement on the research of countless texts, etc. that i've read and people i've met and they all say the same thing, that there are things in any language that cannot be learned in a book. When I PERSONALLY say fluent, what I AM referring to is to be able to speak with the soul of a language and not just properly conjugated phrases. To be understood is not fluent or even to be tremendously understood is not fluent (to me). But if you want me to admit that you can learn the book version of a language i would agree. And i dont mean slang either. Judging language program: I do not claim to be the gospel or consensus on programs. In fact i back your statement that (most) Americans cannot judge a language program accurately, due to the fact that we are not sandwich in between a polyglot society (i.e Europe) and therefore have no strict requirement to learn anything other than English. But i am confident that my opinion would ring true with many people who explore the avenues i have. But really Plat, I am here to learn more than anything and if you say you made a level 4 on the test, you can email me for practice anytime, i'm trying to be where you are at! Currently studying verb tenses and doing with an excellent book i found with practice exercises and answer keys called " Practice makes perfect- Spanish verb tenses". Check it out on you r favorite book review site and tell me what you think of it, its excellent for me as far as explaining where and when to use what, which i didnt get for my 501 Verbs book. Here goes my finger on the post button , hope i spelled everything right :) NYC Edited by NYC_Trini_Span on 07 July 2005 at 1:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7233 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 148 of 193 10 July 2005 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | ||
I sent you a private message with my contact information, but it doesn't look like you've logged in since June 9, so you may not know I sent it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7233 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French | Message 149 of 193 30 July 2005 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | ||
Thanks for amending the situation. I have access to the site and can download two additional months of lessons beyond what I paid for. That's very generous on your part. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| randy310 Senior Member United States Joined 7093 days ago 117 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* | Message 150 of 193 03 August 2005 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hello everyone,
I think the best way to become fluent in Spanish is to start with 3 levels of Pimsleur and then Platiquemos. I believe Platiquemos may be a bit much for an absolute beginner to start with. Penton Overseas vocabulearn would be a good supplement. Berlitz and all the other little mini feel good programs are a waste of money unless all you are seeking is tourist level ability. If you want to become fluent then be prepared to put out some cash. Cheap is not the way to go. Anything worthwhile has to be paid for. Pimsleur and Platiquemos are worth it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| randy310 Senior Member United States Joined 7093 days ago 117 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* | Message 151 of 193 03 August 2005 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | ||
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One more thing,
You can get pimsleur on e-bay for a good price and as you finish each level you have a good chance of selling it at close to what you paid for it. I did. But hold on to Platiquemos for review. it is the gold standard. It is tough as all Fsi programs are but when you conquer it you will speak Spanish extremely well! I would also suggest David Burks street Spanish set of three books and three tapes for slang and idioms to round you out. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| carnid Newbie United States Joined 7212 days ago 8 posts - 8 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish | Message 152 of 193 04 August 2005 at 8:35am | IP Logged | ||
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Here’s my 2 cents – and I apologize if everything I say here has already been covered in this extremely long thread! I agree that Pimsleur is definitely a great way to start learning a language, however after getting by my suspicions about the LSLC program caused by what appears to be exaggerated reviews everywhere & the infomercial style website; I recently decided to give it a try and shell out my $99. It seems the majority of this thread has focused on the questionable marketing style of Mr. Jackson, however if you purchase the program I think many would be actually surprised to the overall quality of the course. I am only on unit 11 and there is now about 45 units overall if I'm not mistaken. In some ways it is repetitive of Pimsleur but in many ways it goes further in explaining the grammar and seems to introduce a much larger vocabulary overall. The speakers are all clear and native and there are also transcripts to read along to the lessons if you desire (something I would have likes to have with Pimsleur). Each unit is roughly 30 minutes just like Pimsleur which suits my 30 minute commute perfectly. There are also tele-seminars held every Wednesday night for customers of the program which I have yet to try but will post when I do.
I am currently on unit 20 of Pimsleur 3 and when I have completed it I will concentrate fully on the rest of LSLC. I do all my Spanish learning on my commute back and forth from work so it is ideal. I just don’t have the time in the evening that I would like to devote to the Foreign Service programs. I downloaded FSI Programmatic 1 & 2 from the LSLC membership site (I don’t know if I was supposed to have access to this as the links disappeared a few days later) and I also own the first 2 levels of Platiquemos. While I hope to get back to them later on when I have more time, both FSI programs don’t really work as well for me personally in the car (Programmatic depends too much on using the text with it and Platiquemos is difficult for me to understand without first reading through the transcripts). This is why LSLC will be my next main commute course and hopefully by the time I finish it I will have more time to dedicate to the more intense FSI. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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